UK European Referendum

Aside from the dry scientific fact that there is difference between countries' lands, how are you such a spiritual desert that you have absolutely no understanding of statehood?

how?? we're letting in many undemocratic countries into the EU currently (not just turkey, long term) AND the EU erodes our own democracy! how is that a promotion of democracy?!



we already do that though! we'd be able to compete further from the outside without slapping tariffs all over the world's markets!



because it's the communal base and foundation of our democratic governance? the EU is not a community that we identify with; we don't think of "we" when we think of the EU, we think of "us" and "them". you can't have a functioning democracy (not like the EU ever claimed to be such a thing) with very remote links between bases

Go and check USA state's history.

Economy and democracy eh? Tariffs eh? Lets see 1980s UK ranking and 2016... NOTHING has changed, we're stalling while western world is going down, we gain more than lose in EU.

um, are you really saying that if the USA was a federation instead of a confederation (if the states aren't to be fully independent colonies) they'd be *more* democratic?



switzerland is wealthier than us proportionate to their population and landmass - they're outside, and they've always been outside. they export 5x as much as us to the EU. why are they doing so well from outside? it's almost as if...you don't need the EU...to be prosperous

Go and check USA state's history.



Economy and democracy eh? Tariffs eh? Lets see 1980s UK ranking and 2016... NOTHING has changed, we're stalling while western world is going down, we gain more than lose in EU.

They in a different situation than UK.

Don't forget why European Union was made, to get Russia and USA to p*** off and stop controlling us

They in a different situation than UK.
Don't forget why European Union was made, to get Russia and USA to p*** off and stop controlling us

The USA has a massively different history... the states were founded by similar people, didn't fight and quickly united. The same doesn't go for Europe.

Also, you're really arguing that the EU, something trying to pass TTIP is giving us freedom from the USA?

yeah because they're out!



and now the EU *literally* controls half our laws

so let Brussels control us?

Who cares if they control half of our laws, what would be different if government made them... and yea their out.... and have a different economy than us.

yes

Churchill is rightly credited as a founding father of the EU.

aahaha but don't forget in WWII he was leading a European Army rather than British Army... barely any was British.

how is half our laws "at the very least*) democratic, though? it's emblematic to the fact that we have little control and it's only getting worse, isn't it.
also, I take issue with your assumption that we'd be making these laws as an independent nation - how do you figure that we'd be voting to subsidise french farms and spanish fisheries as an independent nation? how do you figure we'd be giving ourselves bigger energy bills, or at least bigger to the extent that the EU mandates? how do you figure we'd be bailing out ireland and greece (multiple times) as a non-EU nation? did switzerland do that?

why do you desire that though? :| why should we be controlled by any nation but our own?

Yes its democratic because they treat all countries fair, why should UK make the laws and not other countries? Its meant to bond EU together from its voilent past.

Don't be so selfish, its a union for a reason.

Europe united is better than nationalism

yet here we are - pinned against germany and their ambitions to let in untold numbers of middle eastern men whom will eventually get EU passports to gain entry to the UK. and poland - accepting *zero* "refugees" while we have to accept 20,000. and poland and romania sending hundreds of thousands of their citizens over here making our unemployment and housing problems worse. yeah, this is all going to contribute to better relations? are you ****ing joking?



lol "selfish"
national interest = selfish
but that's what international relations is all about
rationally self-interested/self-motivated unitary actors on the world stage, with relative gains being the central consideration

the UK entered the EEC for national interests
greece entered the EU for national interests
switzerland doesn't enter the EU, for national interests
the UK doesn't go to war with europe, for national interests
the UK fought against the nazis for national interests
etc

it is good to have your country's democratic interest at heart, not to serve another demos - that would be against your own people. you have no idea how states are managed, or ought to be managed. if it were up to you, we wouldn't serve ourselves, we'd serve everybody else, right? because that's the opposite of "selfishness"

the EU is about a european nation though, isn't it? it's about forming a single cohesive organ or community called the EU, or to be the united states of europe.
what else is it about, if it's against the individual countries' nationalisms?
the EU is becoming a nation because we shut the rest of the world out yet we insulate ourselves from within - if not, why do we tariff the world and not give them the same access to the UK as everybody from within the EU?
-_-

Some national interests are good, some are bad... imagine if your them in their country and someone refused to help you out in EU... wouldn't you be annoyed?

EU-Asia deal is being done, EU-USA deal is being done. Influenced by PM David Cameron

why would you suggest that the UK is entitled to the help of other nations? nations must earn the assistance of other nations in the world - they can't just expect it like some kind of bratty child. alliances must be built through historical co-operation. if a country doesn't help the UK, why should we help them? and vice versa. the UK is a very strong and influential country - we don't need to the help of countries like poland and estonia anyway - forget them - they're nothing, relatively speaking.



oh what, so you're telling me only just now these trade deals are being completed? why weren't they done *decades* ago? :| the swiss have had these deals from the outside for YEARS! with the EU, each and every individual member state must assent, so it takes forever to organise - that's the deliberate inefficiency-by-design structure of the EU that is dragging us down into this economic drain

Yes, get rid of this Eurozone and make a United States of Europe.. with state rights etc like America... its going to happen one way or another, if we leave future generations will just vote in its pathetic to even consider leaving when we'll just be back at square one in like 100 years when it probably would be a superstate.