Latest You Gov poll shows 7% majority for Leave
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Original post by TimmonaPortella
Oh, well, sure, but aren't there counters to that other than having open borders with one small part of the global pool of skilled workers? Perhaps simply making absolutely clear that skilled workers won't have trouble coming here would be a start. (Whereas, at present, my understanding is that, if they are from outside the EU, they are right to think that they may face difficulties.)
If they have got a work permit as a doctor then by definition they tick all the boxes. They should have no immigration worries.
However fears are not necessarily rational. East African Asians were citizens of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. They should have had no immigration worries. Then they were stripped of their citizenships and expelled in the 1970s.
This isn't a point that says the EU membership is the only way ahead. This is a point that contradicts the idea, that is very prevalent amongst Brexiters, that the the UK is the only actor in the consequences of Brexit. Skilled immigrants don't just come because we say we want skilled immigrants or we won't take steps to exclude skilled immigrants. The skilled immigrants themselves are actors in the process.
Likewise there is the assumption that foreign governments (whether in the EU or not) are going to entirely reactive to what we want, rather than exercise their individual or collective self interest or behave irrationally out of spite or anger.
Virtually all Brexit predictions assume the only alterations to the status quo are decisions the British government makes. The risks of Brexit are not simply that the consequences of our decisions might turn out to be unfavourable, but that other actors, whether those those governments, businesses or groups of individuals, will act in a manner adverse to the UK.
Original post by nulli tertius
If they have got a work permit as a doctor then by definition they tick all the boxes. They should have no immigration worries.
However fears are not necessarily rational. East African Asians were citizens of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. They should have had no immigration worries. Then they were stripped of their citizenships and expelled in the 1970s.
This isn't a point that says the EU membership is the only way ahead. This is a point that contradicts the idea, that is very prevalent amongst Brexiters, that the the UK is the only actor in the consequences of Brexit. Skilled immigrants don't just come because we say we want skilled immigrants or we won't take steps to exclude skilled immigrants. The skilled immigrants themselves are actors in the process.
Likewise there is the assumption that foreign governments (whether in the EU or not) are going to entirely reactive to what we want, rather than exercise their individual or collective self interest or behave irrationally out of spite or anger.
Virtually all Brexit predictions assume the only alterations to the status quo are decisions the British government makes. The risks of Brexit are not simply that the consequences of our decisions might turn out to be unfavourable, but that other actors, whether those those governments, businesses or groups of individuals, will act in a manner adverse to the UK.
However fears are not necessarily rational. East African Asians were citizens of Kenya, Uganda and Tanzania. They should have had no immigration worries. Then they were stripped of their citizenships and expelled in the 1970s.
This isn't a point that says the EU membership is the only way ahead. This is a point that contradicts the idea, that is very prevalent amongst Brexiters, that the the UK is the only actor in the consequences of Brexit. Skilled immigrants don't just come because we say we want skilled immigrants or we won't take steps to exclude skilled immigrants. The skilled immigrants themselves are actors in the process.
Likewise there is the assumption that foreign governments (whether in the EU or not) are going to entirely reactive to what we want, rather than exercise their individual or collective self interest or behave irrationally out of spite or anger.
Virtually all Brexit predictions assume the only alterations to the status quo are decisions the British government makes. The risks of Brexit are not simply that the consequences of our decisions might turn out to be unfavourable, but that other actors, whether those those governments, businesses or groups of individuals, will act in a manner adverse to the UK.
But what you're talking about is precisely a reaction on the part of skilled immigrants to a decision by the British state -- namely, Brexit. It's one that I grant may follow. I simply think that there may be steps that could be taken to assuage skilled immigrant fears, rational or otherwise.
Beyond that, I'm not sure how to respond, other than simply to recognise that, yes, of course there are other actors here. The government, and, in the context of the referendum, every one of us has to consider how we think other actors will react to British decisions and policy. This is the case whether we are considering leaving or staying. If we are considering staying, we must make our best guess as to how the EU will proceed from now, and how Britain will be treated within it, and factor this into our decision. There are no certainties here.
Original post by nulli tertius
Emigration is also likely to increase if we Brexit. It is no coincidence that the idea of the "brain drain" which was so significant in the 1960s and 1970s evaporated after free movement of workers came into effect.
I think it would be fairer to say that it became significantly harder for British people to move to richer English speaking countries and that France, West Germany and Italy simply weren't as appealing as Australia and Canada.
This is in a sense a win for the British state but a loss for British people; the range of options they had that they actually wanted to pursue reduced.
Brexit would not make it easier to move to Canada and would make it harder to move to Italy.
Original post by nulli tertius
Boeing is a poor choice of a company affected by Brexit. The fact Osborne chose it doesn't make it a good choice. Their employees are essentially providing support to US manufactured products sold into the UK market.
AWACS and 737s will still be flying from the UK regardless of Brexit.
Siemens have about 14000 UK employees. Most of what they make here or support from here is not sold into the UK market. They have too many worldwide plants and most of what they do here is mirrored in other plants abroad.
Siemens statement on Brexit is in part:
Reading between the lines. "We may well pull out of making things in Britain, but we think you haven't got any choice but to buy the things we make regardless of tariffs and so we intend to continue to flog you these goods from our European plants"
AWACS and 737s will still be flying from the UK regardless of Brexit.
Siemens have about 14000 UK employees. Most of what they make here or support from here is not sold into the UK market. They have too many worldwide plants and most of what they do here is mirrored in other plants abroad.
Siemens statement on Brexit is in part:
Reading between the lines. "We may well pull out of making things in Britain, but we think you haven't got any choice but to buy the things we make regardless of tariffs and so we intend to continue to flog you these goods from our European plants"
Then you get the CIO of JP Morgans asset management calling bs on david cameron's scaremongering:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-15/jpmorgan-cio-crushes-camerons-scaremongery-brexit-hardly-stuff-economic-calamity
Original post by Sun_Bear
Then you get the CIO of JP Morgans asset management calling bs on david cameron's scaremongering:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-15/jpmorgan-cio-crushes-camerons-scaremongery-brexit-hardly-stuff-economic-calamity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-15/jpmorgan-cio-crushes-camerons-scaremongery-brexit-hardly-stuff-economic-calamity
How good was JPMorgan at calling the 2008 crash?
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Original post by jneill
By the looks of things quite well actually: http://archive.fortune.com/2008/08/29/news/companies/tully_jpmorgan.fortune/index.htm
Regardless, that's a stupid statement. Did any of the worldwide governements call it? The Fed? the uk treasury? LSE? Economists? Big multinational companies? Any the people you quote for remain campaign statistics?
Original post by jneill
Original post by Sun_Bear
By the looks of things quite well actually: http://archive.fortune.com/2008/08/29/news/companies/tully_jpmorgan.fortune/index.htm
Regardless, that's a stupid statement. Did any of the worldwide governements call it? The Fed? the uk treasury? LSE? Economists? Big multinational companies? Any the people you quote for remain campaign statistics?
Regardless, that's a stupid statement. Did any of the worldwide governements call it? The Fed? the uk treasury? LSE? Economists? Big multinational companies? Any the people you quote for remain campaign statistics?
Yeah, that's probably not the most productive discussion to be having. That said, most of the research reports I've seen come out of 3 IBs that I have found research access for (cred suisse and 2 others), simply reassert the negative short-term uncertainty impact without committing to any longer-term implications.
Although it's entirely separate, it was of course investment banks, including JP Morgan, who were a key cog in the financial crisis. Certain, bonus chasing, individuals were clearly taking on excessive risk, and even in some cases mis-selling mortgage-banked products which was enabled by information asymmetry between banks and the securities purchasers - hence why JPM was fined over $13bn (IIRC) retrospectively.
Original post by DorianGrayism
Actually, the impact on immigration on Hospitals is pretty small. The issue is that there are a growing number of elderly people coming in that are not properly looked after.
In fact, without immigrants manning teams, then Hospitals would be a complete disaster zone.
In fact, without immigrants manning teams, then Hospitals would be a complete disaster zone.
Do you live in an area which has seen a rise in immigration? Well I do and over the last 13 years I've seen 4 Primary schools built just to cope with the numbers of poor Europeans coming here If your wage is only £1.00 an hour in Somewhere like Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and Latvia you sure will try and move away from that place to somewhere where the minimum wage is 90% higher.
They don't pay enough tax so they are a drain on UK public services.
THEY are also a drain on the NHS. Every time at my local GP all I see are Eastern Europeans taking advantage of the free healthcare we have. NONE speak English and every single one is using a translator WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS? Years ago this never happened but now my local GP IS absolutely struggling and people have to wait for months to get an appointment!!
The Kids don't speak ENGLISH EITHER! So schools are struggling and are paying £££££ for Teaching assistant with a second European Language. Just the other day I've seen an add for a Teaching assistant that can speak Romanian!! And so on.
Romania size 238,391 km² and Population 19.96 million
England size 130,395 km² and population 53.01 million
Just look at the population growth of this country do we need to let any Tom, Harry, Johns from Eastern Europe?
(edited 7 years ago)
VOTE OUT
SAVE YOURSELVES!
Come on people!
SAVE YOURSELVES!
Come on people!
EUref campaigning has been suspended.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-politics-attack-leave-idUKKCN0Z21WC
http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-politics-attack-leave-idUKKCN0Z21WC
Original post by Jee1
Do you live in an area which has seen a rise in immigration? Well I do and over the last 13 years I've seen 4 Primary schools built just to cope with the numbers of poor Europeans coming here If your wage is only £1.00 an hour in Somewhere like Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and Latvia you sure will try and move away from that place to somewhere where the minimum wage is 90% higher.
They don't pay enough tax so they are a drain on UK public services.
THEY are also a drain on the NHS. Every time at my local GP all I see are Eastern Europeans taking advantage of the free healthcare we have. NONE speak English and every single one is using a translator WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS? Years ago this never happened but now my local GP IS absolutely struggling and people have to wait for months to get an appointment!!
The Kids don't speak ENGLISH EITHER! So schools are struggling and are paying £££££ for Teaching assistant with a second European Language. Just the other day I've seen an add for a Teaching assistant that can speak Romanian!! And so on.
Romania size 238,391 km² and Population 19.96 million
England size 130,395 km² and population 53.01 million
Just look at the population growth of this country do we need to let any Tom, Harry, Johns from Eastern Europe?
They don't pay enough tax so they are a drain on UK public services.
THEY are also a drain on the NHS. Every time at my local GP all I see are Eastern Europeans taking advantage of the free healthcare we have. NONE speak English and every single one is using a translator WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS? Years ago this never happened but now my local GP IS absolutely struggling and people have to wait for months to get an appointment!!
The Kids don't speak ENGLISH EITHER! So schools are struggling and are paying £££££ for Teaching assistant with a second European Language. Just the other day I've seen an add for a Teaching assistant that can speak Romanian!! And so on.
Romania size 238,391 km² and Population 19.96 million
England size 130,395 km² and population 53.01 million
Just look at the population growth of this country do we need to let any Tom, Harry, Johns from Eastern Europe?
Mate, you say migrants “don’t pay enough tax so they are adrain on UK public services”. This couldn’t be further from the truth if youtried. A University College London study showed that between the years 2000-2011 EU migrants made a £20 Billion to UK finances through tax. Migrants from the15 countries which made up the EU before 2004 (countries like France, Germanyand Italy) contributed 64% – £15bn more in taxes than they received in welfare– while Eastern European migrants contributed 12% more than they received,equivalent to £5bn more. So the tax coming from the migrants are helping to build the4 primary schools that have been built and one major reason why GP services areunder stain is because of lack of people wanting to become GP’s because the jobload is increased but they are still on roughly the same pay as before sopeople are leaving the trade and moving to other countries eg. Australia or theUSA.
Also to say “NONE speak English” is complete BS – English isthe most widely spoken language in the EU with 51% of adults having the abilityto hold a “working” conversation. English is the most widely spoken foreignlanguage in 19 of the 25 member states where it isn’t an official language(i.e. not the UK and Ireland). While programs, especially on Channels 4 & 5 might make out that none of the EU migrants can speak English - in the real world that is the complete opposite of the truth.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
This is the most irritating repeated dumb comment of this entire campaign.
Literally no-one is calling to close the border to skilled workers we need in this country.
Literally no-one is calling to close the border to skilled workers we need in this country.
Not my issue if you are stupid enough to take the comment out of context.
Original post by Jee1
Do you live in an area which has seen a rise in immigration? Well I do and over the last 13 years I've seen 4 Primary schools built just to cope with the numbers of poor Europeans coming here If your wage is only £1.00 an hour in Somewhere like Romania, Bulgaria, Lithuania and Latvia you sure will try and move away from that place to somewhere where the minimum wage is 90% higher.
They don't pay enough tax so they are a drain on UK public services.
THEY are also a drain on the NHS. Every time at my local GP all I see are Eastern Europeans taking advantage of the free healthcare we have. NONE speak English and every single one is using a translator WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS? Years ago this never happened but now my local GP IS absolutely struggling and people have to wait for months to get an appointment!!
They don't pay enough tax so they are a drain on UK public services.
THEY are also a drain on the NHS. Every time at my local GP all I see are Eastern Europeans taking advantage of the free healthcare we have. NONE speak English and every single one is using a translator WHO IS GOING TO PAY FOR ALL THIS? Years ago this never happened but now my local GP IS absolutely struggling and people have to wait for months to get an appointment!!
Yeh, I live in London.
Thanks, I work as a Doc. I know what happens in an ED and GP.
The difference is that I am not making things up as I go along like you.
Every single one is using a translator? Maybe, you should stop talking BS whilst you are at it.
The issue with the NHS is chronic and deliberate underfunding by the Tories so it can be sold off to private companies. The fact is that EU immigrants pay in more tax than they receive. Low wage Eastern Europeans might not pay much in tax but the companies they work for do. So try using some common sense.
Original post by slaven
So the Remainians attacker an anti-EU MP.
wot.
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Original post by slaven
So the Remainians attacker an anti-EU MP.
Certainly how the bookies are thinking people are going to see it, significant swing to a remain win in their odds from it
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Original post by Jammy Duel
Certainly how the bookies are thinking people are going to see it, significant swing to a remain win in their odds from it
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wot.
If anything it's a Leaver fanatic attacking a Remainer MP.
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Original post by jneill
As for jumping to conclusions that counts as an instant classic.
Deplorable, despicable and disgusting.
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Original post by XcitingStuart
As for jumping to conclusions that counts as an instant classic.
Deplorable, despicable and disgusting.
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Deplorable, despicable and disgusting.
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wot?
The 2 people above are saying it's the opposite to what's been reported. That's all I'm saying - hence the "if anything...". I (and you) have no better knowledge of this terrible event.
Anyway. enough.
A really good conversation from two British jungle lads:
[video="youtube;i-B_It0ir6I"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-B_It0ir6I[/video]
[video="youtube;i-B_It0ir6I"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-B_It0ir6I[/video]
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