"Brexit means more political control": Here's a reality check

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Here's a reality check.

When people talk about Brexit taking back control, they do not mean for themselves, or the voter but for parliament. The European Communities act of 1972 ensures the supremacy of EU law over UK law.

I bet half the Brexiters don't see it that way.

Reply 21

Phoebe Buffay

Original post by drogon

So you're telling that all or even most of the brexit voters have written to their MPs?
.

Did I say that? Do not attribute things to me which I did not say.

Original post by drogon

A fisherman or a farmer has got a valid reason for them personally to leave. The rest are like a bunch of football fan yobs. Haven't a clue what the situation is.

Well I tell you what, why don't you make a list of all the people who you think do not have a valid reason in this debate. And then add your name at the bottom.

Stop with these vast generalisations.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 22

Phoebe Buffay

Original post by RayApparently

I bet half the Brexiters don't see it that way.

Neither you nor I can speculate as such. Stop with these generalisations please

Reply 23

drogon

Original post by Phoebe Buffay

Why do you state this as fact? Many people including myself do not accept this.

.

Like what?

Original post by Phoebe Buffay

Yes. The first step is to leave the EU. The next is to reform the government in this country.And you keep talking about ukip. There is more to this than ukip. The eu polls indicate a 50 50 split for the referendum. Millions more people will vote to leave than would have voted ukip in may.There is also a sense in this country of politicians in this country ceding power to the EU without proper public consultation.

Our government isn't going to reform anytime soon, keep dreaming mate. If ever.

Are you saying UKIP hasn't been a driving force? They did help get the referendum after all.

See the word there? "sense". Because frankly many brexiters havent got a clue. It's an irrational hatred stigma associated with a European making our laws.

Reply 24

drogon

Original post by Phoebe Buffay

Did I say that? Do not attribute things to me which I did not say.

Well I tell you what, why don't you make a list of all the people who you think do not have a valid reason in this debate. And then add your name at the bottom.

Stop with these vast generalisations.

I'm simply pointing out how ironic it is of brexiters to not be actively writing to their MPs. They dont care.

A pretty accurate generalisation. Go ask a brexiter on the streets. They'll just regurgitate the same old thing: "take back control of our country" is all they'll say. Perhaps a few more intelligent people can see the bigger picture.

Reply 25

RayApparently

Original post by Phoebe Buffay

Neither you nor I can speculate as such. Stop with these generalisations please

I don't see why I can't speculate. Polling shows how underinformed the electorate is. I don't see why I'd legitimise the views of people I disagree with by giving them the benefit of the doubt when there's evidence to suggest a lot of voters on both sides don't know what they're on about. After all, a lot of the people voting for Brexit support political parties campaigning on pro-EU platforms so to think that those people genuinely want to pass power from the EU to those parties is inane as opposed to being enamoured by meaningless 'take our country back' slogans.

Besides, when the inevitable trade deals occur they'll be made behind close doors - not debated in a parliament of elected MEPs. So I see Brexit as the fundamentally anti-democratic choice.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 26

Phoebe Buffay

Original post by drogon

Our government isn't going to reform anytime soon, keep dreaming mate. If ever.

Simply not true. In 2011 we had a referendum in this country on the alternative vote, which would have resulted in quite a change. It will certainly be easier to reform westminster than the EU.

Original post by drogon

Are you saying UKIP hasn't been a driving force? They did help get the referendum after all.

Again, did I say that? I never denied that ukip was a 'driving force'. I simply said that you were overstating the role of ukip

Original post by drogon

See the word there? "sense". Because frankly many brexiters havent got a clue. It's an irrational hatred stigma associated with a European making our laws.

I used the word 'sense' because I am modest and can only speak for myself and not others. And to me it is a fact that significant changes have happened to this country which the public were not properly consulted about.

Reply 27

Phoebe Buffay

Original post by RayApparently

I'm always suspicious of polls because of so few people they ask. In general I'm not sure how accurate they are.

Original post by RayApparently

Besides, when the inevitable trade deals occur they'll be made behind close doors - not debated in a parliament of elected MEPs. So I see Brexit as the fundamentally anti-democratic choice.

Trade deals are always made behond closed doors. The European Commission is negotiating TTIP in secret. It is no bastion of openness.

Reply 28

RayApparently

Original post by Phoebe Buffay

I'm always suspicious of polls because of so few people they ask. In general I'm not sure how accurate they are.

Trade deals are always made behond closed doors. The European Commission is negotiating TTIP in secret. It is no bastion of openness.

Doesn't mean that the electorate isn't uninformed. I see no evidence whatsoever to the contrary. I also think this is a type of poll where it would be difficult to bias the result.

But they're debated in the European Parliament. Also TTIP, in it's current form, is unlikely to pass. Something very similar is likely to arrive if we leave the EU though as the Tories are keen on it. As I don't think private profit should be able to lord over governments I'd prefer to be protected by a Union were any member state can veto that wretched arrangement.

Reply 29

EuanF

Original post by drogon

Just because you don't write to your MP doesn't mean the rest of us don't. Please don't try to generalise us down to your level.

Original post by RayApparently

Besides, when the inevitable trade deals occur they'll be made behind close doors - not debated in a parliament of elected MEPs. So I see Brexit as the fundamentally anti-democratic choice.

It's painfully obvious that you don't know how the EU operates trade deals. To quote Juncker -

"I'm ready to be insulted as being insufficiently democratic, but I want to be serious ... I am for secret, dark debates"

Reply 30

RayApparently

Original post by EuanF

Some throwaway quote by Juncker does not a system describe. It doesn't even sound like it's in any sort of relevant context. EU trade deals need to be ratified by both the European Council and the European Parliament. If you're going to lecture me to the contrary at least do so with procedural facts and not weirdly phrased quotes.

Reply 31

EuanF

Original post by RayApparently

That particular quote was regarding EU monetary policy - a similar area indeed. This is where the President of the EU's philosophies lie.

Reply 32

RayApparently

Original post by EuanF

That particular quote was regarding EU monetary policy - a similar area indeed. This is where the President of the EU's philosophies lie.

So you patronisingly told me that it's "painfully obvious that I don't know how the EU operates trade deals" by quoting Juncker talking about monetary policy? What I said about trade deals is completely valid.

Btw, UK monetary policy is determined by the unelected bureaucracy of the Bank of England. Politicising (and therefore democratising) monetary policy is an absolute disaster for an economy.

Reply 33

RayApparently

Original post by EuanF

That particular quote was regarding EU monetary policy - a similar area indeed. This is where the President of the EU's philosophies lie.

Reading this (how can anyone who knows anything about economics criticise such a quote in reference to monetary policy???) I think you've been genuinely mislead about the EU and I think it's a huge shame that it's probably too late to convince you before the referendum. The media and more importantly our political leaders/representatives have completely failed to present this debate fairly and accurately.