The Student Room Group

Does Europe ever learn?

Same stuff happens over and over again. Replace Jews with Muslims and you'll have the future of Muslims in Europe.

It seems like all the media wants to do is to taint Islam and Muslims with simple isolated cases committed by criminals and the insane, their crimes are some how linked back to their religion.

Leading up to WW2 every crime committed by anyone of Jewish faith was related back to Judaism, they were blamed for everything, from losing the war due to treachery, the economy, the lack of food- typical scapegoating by the media and the far right..Sound familiar? They were seen as dodgy people who could not be trusted.
(edited 7 years ago)

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Well when you've got people that read and live their lives by scripture that also contains passages prompting the killing of other groups of people, it's kinda difficult to not put 2 and 2 together.

You can be homophobic and not a Muslim, and you can be a Muslim and not homophobic, but when it comes down to homophobic Muslims I think it's pretty damn clear where they get their homophobia from... even if they didn't get it from the scripture themselves, it's incredibly likely that they're homophobic as a result of being a product of their environment. So where do you think their parents or their grandparents got their attitudes from?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Drunk Punx
Well when you've got people that read and live their lives by scripture that also contains passages prompting the killing of other groups of people, it's kinda difficult to not put 2 and 2 together.

You can be homophobic and not a Muslim, and you can be a Muslim and not homophobic, but when it comes down to homophobic Muslims I think it's pretty damn clear where they get their homophobia from... even if they didn't get it from the scripture themselves, it's incredibly likely that they're homophobic as a result of being a product of their environment. So where do you think their parents or their grandparents got their attitudes from?


Same with Christians. Don't forget the IRA.
Reply 3
Original post by Drunk Punx
Well when you've got people that read and live their lives by scripture that also contains passages prompting the killing of other groups of people, it's kinda difficult to not put 2 and 2 together.

You can be homophobic and not a Muslim, and you can be a Muslim and not homophobic, but when it comes down to homophobic Muslims I think it's pretty damn clear where they get their homophobia from... even if they didn't get it from the scripture themselves, it's incredibly likely that they're homophobic as a result of being a product of their environment. So where do you think their parents or their grandparents got their attitudes from?


Typical gross generalisation. The reason I stick up for Muslims on this forum is because I've seen how diverse they are. There are the strictly religious, moderate and those are much more liberal i.e. the drinkers and party boys and girls. I've met more moderate than strict by a clear mile.

People have different back grounds, some families are strict and some aren't. I believe its down to class and background solely. If you bring third world economic migrants into a country from one which is behind in development, then prepare to put up with backward views however the vast majority would've come through the HSMP program, highly skilled and educated ( not any more thanks to conservatives) who are more westernised and open minded. It will take a couple of generations for the working class migrants to sort themselves out but it eventually does.

I don't think its constructive to say that the homophobia comes exclusively from their religious book or its a Muslim phenomena.. Some people are just homophobic because they don't like the idea. I'm assuming you're trying to link this to the Orlando attack?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Themini
Typical gross generalisation. The reason I stick up for Muslims on this forum is because I've seen how diverse they are. There are the strictly religious, moderate and those are much more liberal i.e. the drinkers and party boys and girls.

I don't think its constructive to say the homophobia comes from their religious book. I'm assuming you're trying to link this to the Orlando attack?


I'm just generally linking this to the treatment of homosexuals at the hands of people who all read the same book. Take from that what you will.

Also, I'm not quite sure what the "gross generalisation" is when I quite clearly said "you can be Muslim and not homophobic".

My issue has been, and will always lie, with the ideology, not the people who follow it (the people change, but the book doesn't [I'm pretty sure that's some kind of religious law as far as Islam is concerned, someone {a Muslim who shows up in pretty much every Islam based thread and starts throwing up quotes like they're going out of fashion, not some random bloke down the pub} mentioned it on here a while back]).

Potentially unnecessary brackets/10.

You can say what you like about how constructive it is, criticisms of homosexuality are written within the Qu'ran and the Hadiths. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's not true.

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/homosexuality.htm

According to a pamphlet produced by Al-Fatiha, there is a consensus among Islamic scholars that all humans are naturally heterosexual. 5 Homosexuality is seen by scholars to be a sinful and perverted deviation from the norm. All Islamic schools of thought and jurisprudence consider gay acts to be unlawful...

...Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi of the ISNA said: "Homosexuality is a moral disorder. It is a moral disease, a sin and corruption... No person is born homosexual, just like no one is born a thief, a liar or murderer. People acquire these evil habits due to a lack of proper guidance and education."

"There are many reasons why it is forbidden in Islam. Homosexuality is dangerous for the health of the individuals and for the society. It is a main cause of one of the most harmful and fatal diseases. It is disgraceful for both men and women. It degrades a person. Islam teaches that men should be men and women should be women. Homosexuality deprives a man of his manhood and a woman of her womanhood. It is the most un-natural way of life. Homosexuality leads to the destruction of family life."...

...The point of this post is to make clear the position of Islam on homosexuality so that there will be no doubts about it


It took me 2 minutes to find that, and a few more to go through it. What's your excuse?


Original post by asmuse123
Same with Christians. Don't forget the IRA.


Of course. Anyone who follows their religion to lengths that society now deems as absurd is far more willing to treat certain groups as the scripture suggests that they treat them (see the WBC as a prime example), as opposed to the people who follow the religion but have more than two brain cells to rub together will treat them.

Though I'm not quite with you on the IRA comment... though religion featured in there, weren't they more politically motivated than religiously? Unless I've missed your point.
Original post by Drunk Punx
Of course. Anyone who follows their religion to lengths that society now deems as absurd is far more willing to treat certain groups as the scripture suggests that they treat them (see the WBC as a prime example), as opposed to the people who follow the religion but have more than two brain cells to rub together will treat them.

Though I'm not quite with you on the IRA comment... though religion featured in there, weren't they more politically motivated than religiously? Unless I've missed your point.


Christians can be just as dangerous as Muslims.
Original post by asmuse123
Christians can be just as dangerous as Muslims.


You're right, they can... so aside from seeing if your Captain Obvious hat still fits, what's your point?
Original post by Drunk Punx
You're right, they can... so aside from seeing if your Captain Obvious hat still fits, what's your point?


That was exactly my point. Muslims aren't the only dangerous religious people, you know.
Original post by asmuse123
That was exactly my point. Muslims aren't the only dangerous religious people, you know.


Yes, I do know... that's why I said "of course", and then explained why, and referenced a group of Christians who follow their beliefs to the extreme.

I'm just desperately trying to see how that's relevant to OP when there was no mention of Christianity, so I can only assume that your strawman game is on top form today.
Original post by Themini
Typical gross generalisation. The reason I stick up for Muslims on this forum is because I've seen how diverse they are. There are the strictly religious, moderate and those are much more liberal i.e. the drinkers and party boys and girls. I've met more moderate than strict by a clear mile.

People have different back grounds, some families are strict and some aren't. I believe its down to class and background solely. If you bring third world economic migrants into a country from one which is behind in development, then prepare to put up with backward views however the vast majority would've come through the HSMP program, highly skilled and educated ( not any more thanks to conservatives) who are more westernised and open minded. It will take a couple of generations for the working class migrants to sort themselves out but it eventually does.

I don't think its constructive to say that the homophobia comes exclusively from their religious book or its a Muslim phenomena.. Some people are just homophobic because they don't like the idea. I'm assuming you're trying to link this to the Orlando attack?


And I've experienced the TSR members, who were Muslim, who said this other gay user should be stoned to death.
The members that said sharia law should be implemented in Britain, sympathise with ISIS or those that call homosexuals a degenerative disease.

Don't you ever use that argument; it simply shows you haven't used the Internet enough, and that's not my fault, nor anyone else's.

And yes, they were being serious (not trolling.)

I've also met Christian and atheist extremists, but I can assure you I've met the Islamic ones the most.

Yes, so many Muslims are good, but there clearly is a problem in Islam, with the tendencies brought forth. Don't trivialise that.
Original post by Drunk Punx
Yes, I do know... that's why I said "of course", and then explained why, and referenced a group of Christians who follow their beliefs to the extreme.

I'm just desperately trying to see how that's relevant to OP when there was no mention of Christianity, so I can only assume that your strawman game is on top form today.


OK, firstly, I repped the OP's post when I first read it, because I agreed with it. Secondly, good on you. Thirdly, the main reason why I wrote what I wrote was because:

Drunk Punx
Well when you've got people that read and live their lives by scripture that also contains passages prompting the killing of other groups of people, it's kinda difficult to not put 2 and 2 together.
Original post by asmuse123
OK, firstly, I repped the OP's post when I first read it, because I agreed with it. Secondly, good on you. Thirdly, the main reason why I wrote what I wrote was because:


Yeeeeees... and? I'm still struggling to reconcile the two. Surely my comment about scripture inciting violence extends to Christianity by default given that the Bible is also scripture?

If the WBC shot a few gay people, how could you turn around and not link that to their religious beliefs? It'd be ridiculous to take such a position.

Ergo, my point stands.
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Original post by Drunk Punx
Yeeeeees... and? I'm still struggling to reconcile the two. Surely my comment about scripture inciting violence extends to Christianity by default given that the Bible is also scripture?


It seems as if you were targeting Islam in particular, which I've seen a lot on TSR,so I'm wary of statements about Muslim scriptures. If you weren't attacking Islam, I apologise.
Original post by asmuse123
It seems as if you were targeting Islam in particular, which I've seen a lot on TSR,so I'm wary of statements about Muslim scriptures. If you weren't attacking Islam, I apologise.


I edited and expanded before you replied, go look at the edit. Should clear things up.
Original post by Themini

People have different back grounds, some families are strict and some aren't. I believe its down to class and background solely. If you bring third world economic migrants into a country from one which is behind in development, then prepare to put up with backward views however the vast majority would've come through the HSMP program, highly skilled and educated ( not any more thanks to conservatives) who are more westernised and open minded. It will take a couple of generations for the working class migrants to sort themselves out but it eventually does.
QUOTE]

I agree on that fact that we live in a multicultural society with a variety of backgrounds. How income, ethnicity, location, nationality, subgroup (chav, geeky, hipster etc) combine makes up society. I disagree that migrants are suddenly unskilled and uneducated because of the HSMP programme. There's probably very little difference from today to 10-20 years ago. The problem is that when an individual from any culture settles down in a new location they have to start from scratch. They wouldn't have attended school in the country, etc etc. That is a massive barrier which can be mistaken for something else.
Reply 15
Original post by XcitingStuart
And I've experienced the TSR members, who were Muslim, who said this other gay user should be stoned to death.
The members that said sharia law should be implemented in Britain, sympathise with ISIS or those that call homosexuals a degenerative disease.

Don't you ever use that argument; it simply shows you haven't used the Internet enough, and that's not my fault, nor anyone else's.

And yes, they were being serious (not trolling.)

I've also met Christian and atheist extremists, but I can assure you I've met the Islamic ones the most.

Yes, so many Muslims are good, but there clearly is a problem in Islam, with the tendencies brought forth. Don't trivialise that.


You know there is a real world outside TSR? If we all made judgements based on an internet forum I think we'd come to the conclusion that all British people or majority are racists, fascists and islamophobes given the outrageously vile number islamophobic segments that are posted everyday.

This is what I mean, complete ignorance. You see a bunch of fascist types on TSR and think all of them are like that.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Themini
You know there is a real world outside TSR? If we all made judgements based on an internet forum I think we'd come to the conclusion that all British people or majority are racists, fascists and islamophobes given the outrageously vile number islamophobic segments that are posted everyday.

This is what I mean, complete ignorance. You see a bunch of fascist types on TSR and think all of them are like that.

Several Muslim countries (with a combined population of hundreds of millions) execute homosexuals under sharia law?

"Minority" they said...
Original post by Themini
You see a bunch of fascist types on TSR and think all of them are like that.


Kinda interesting how the other guy I was talking to on here held to a similar mindset, eh? That door swings both ways, pal.

Also, I'm pretty sure he acknowledged the fact that not all Muslims are like that in the same post that you quoted.
Reply 18
Original post by BioStudentx
Several Muslim countries (with a combined population of hundreds of millions) execute homosexuals under sharia law?

"Minority" they said...


So what's your problem? We're talking about the Muslims in the west not in the middle east. Secondly, I take offence to this type of ideology. Not everyone has to conform to western ideologies. That is fascism, what happens in the middle east has nothing to do with us, if that's how they run their country so be it but its not a representative of western Muslims .

Seen what democracy has done to Iraq lately? Same logic applies.

I'm saying that the vast majority of Muslims in this country follow the rules of the land and should not be blamed for every single crime that any vile member of their religion commits because if we go down this road we've got a holocaust coming.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Themini
So what's your problem? We're talking about the Muslims in the west not in the middle east. Secondly, I take offence to this type of ideology. Not everyone has to conform to western ideologies. That is fascism, what happens in the middle east has nothing to do with us, if that's how they run their country so be it but its not a representative of western Muslims .

Seen what democracy has done to Iraq lately? Same logic applies.

I'm saying that the vast majority of Muslims in this country follow the rules of the land and should not be blamed for every single crime that any vile member of their religion commits because if we go down this road we've got a holocaust coming.

God you're stupid. I'm literally going to have to break this down for you.
1) Yes we are talking about Muslims in Europe - but where do you think Muslims come from? The sky? No. They come from the middle east. Do you really want immigration from a country that hangs gay people? If that's the "law of the land" then people are obviously supporting it. When those people move to Europe - they'll continue to support it... See it how it affects us? Is your brain able to put 2 and 2 together?

2) I didn't say everyone has to conform to Western ideologies - you're the one bringing it up. However, we do have to conform to UN human rights law. If you're not aware then you need to start researching it. Sharia law goes against basic human rights...

3) Can you not understand how you're being a massive hypocrite? You're claiming that forcing people to accept an ideology is fascism and purposefully ignoring the execution of gays. So in some situations it is okay to force ideologies on people?

4) It's great how your brain jumps from criticism of Islam to "another holocaust". When you start making ridiculous claims then people will stop taking you seriously. And to be honest, based on your logic - if a country like Saudi Arabia/Iran/Yemen etc had a law to execute all white people you'd be like "omg stop being so fascist, they're allowed to have whatever law they want". But anyone who is a fascist in Europe is the worst human possible. Because in your deluded brain that isn't hypocrisy.

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