64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote
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Original post by offhegoes
So then it would perhaps be misleading to imply that the current relative peace is just because a few countries have nuclear weapons?
Why do you think NATO and the Warsaw pact didn't go to war directly?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
I've got a funny feeling you're about to tell me
To be honest you can speculate all you like, and I'm sure you could even come up with some sources to back up your point, just as I could come up with sources to back up mine. We are speculating about what would or would not have happened, and as much as we can try to break it down into something simple the world never really works that way. We may as well try to predict how the world would have turned out if JFK had survived - essentially guesswork.
Anyone proclaiming the EU as definitely having stopped major wars in Europe or as having done nothing to promote peace in Europe either lacks the intelligence to understand that they are talking about the unknowable or is intellectually dishonest. I prefer the former group.
Original post by offhegoes
..Anyone proclaiming the EU as definitely having stopped major wars in Europe or as having done nothing to promote peace in Europe either lacks the intelligence to understand that they are talking about the unknowable or is intellectually dishonest. I prefer the former group.
..Anyone proclaiming the EU as definitely having stopped major wars in Europe or as having done nothing to promote peace in Europe either lacks the intelligence to understand that they are talking about the unknowable or is intellectually dishonest. I prefer the former group.
Did you know that the EU was only formed in 1993 after the Maastricht Treaty? It was the EEC that caused European countries to cooperate and may or may not have contributed to peace. The EU is devisive, leading to referendums to break up the cooperation created by the EEC, the rise of the far right and marches in Southern Europe against Germany
This Referendum is about the EU. It is about whether we want to be in a political union. The Eurozone is already on the way to forming a full political union that will control us unless we either join them or leave.
Original post by newpersonage
Did you know that the EU was only formed in 1993 after the Maastricht Treaty? It was the EEC that caused European countries to cooperate and may or may not have contributed to peace. The EU is devisive, leading to referendums to break up the cooperation created by the EEC, the rise of the far right and marches in Southern Europe against Germany
This Referendum is about the EU. It is about whether we want to be in a political union. The Eurozone is already on the way to forming a full political union that will control us unless we either join them or leave.
This Referendum is about the EU. It is about whether we want to be in a political union. The Eurozone is already on the way to forming a full political union that will control us unless we either join them or leave.
Hence why I clearly said EEC/EU in relation to peace in Europe, and not just EU.
So we are going to leave the EU and yet stay in something akin to the EEC?
Because if not then we are taking a backwards step in terms or working together with the rest of the EU countries.
Original post by Jammy Duel
"The EU stay in campaign say the EU has kept peace in Europe for 70 years with no wars... Erm
No Wars in Europe the last 70 years?
1949 Greek Civil War
1953 Uprising in East Germany
1956 Uprising in Poznań
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956–1962 Operation Harvest
1958 Opération Corse
1958 First Cod War
1959–2011 Basque conflict
1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968–1998 The Troubles
1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
1972 Bugojno group
1972–1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1975–1976 Third Cod War
1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
1991 January Events
1991 The Barricades
1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 Transnistria War
1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
1999 War of Dagestan
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
Great job EU 👍🏻"
No Wars in Europe the last 70 years?
1949 Greek Civil War
1953 Uprising in East Germany
1956 Uprising in Poznań
1956 Hungarian Revolution
1956–1962 Operation Harvest
1958 Opération Corse
1958 First Cod War
1959–2011 Basque conflict
1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
1968–1998 The Troubles
1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
1972 Bugojno group
1972–1973 Second Cod War
1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
1975–1976 Third Cod War
1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
1989 Romanian Revolution
1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
1991 January Events
1991 The Barricades
1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
1992 Transnistria War
1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
1992–1995 Bosnian War
1993 Cherbourg incident
1993 Russian constitutional crisis
1994–1996 First Chechen War
1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
1998–1999 Kosovo War
1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
1999 War of Dagestan
1999–2009 Second Chechen War
Great job EU 👍🏻"
I'm not particularly pro-EU, but that actually supports the point made, as virtually every conflict on that list took place in a country outside the EU at the time, and many still are.
It's also telling of how spurious your argument is when you include things like the Cod Wars and the Cherbourg incident (which had precisely 1 casualty between them); and things like Operation Harvest, the January Events and others, cannot remotely be considered 'wars', certainly not in the same way that Bosnia or Chechnya can.
When you're past all those, what you're essentially left with are things like the Troubles, the Basque conflict, and the Years of Lead - all low-intensity domestic guerilla conflicts. Problematic as they are, they're not remotely comparable to conventional state-on-state wars.
Original post by offhegoes
Hence why I clearly said EEC/EU in relation to peace in Europe, and not just EU.
So we are going to leave the EU and yet stay in something akin to the EEC?
Because if not then we are taking a backwards step in terms or working together with the rest of the EU countries.
So we are going to leave the EU and yet stay in something akin to the EEC?
Because if not then we are taking a backwards step in terms or working together with the rest of the EU countries.
The EU is not really akin to the EEC, it is a major development that will create a megastate in Europe, what Jean Monnet called "The United States of Europe".
The "Rest of the EU countries" are busy becoming regions of the Eurozone. They will leave the UK with the option of working together with the United States of Europe.
This referendum really is the time to choose: Remain is ending British independence for all future generations. Leave is keeping independence and working with the new behemoth across the Channel.
Original post by offhegoes
Hence why I clearly said EEC/EU in relation to peace in Europe, and not just EU.
So we are going to leave the EU and yet stay in something akin to the EEC?
Because if not then we are taking a backwards step in terms or working together with the rest of the EU countries.
So we are going to leave the EU and yet stay in something akin to the EEC?
Because if not then we are taking a backwards step in terms or working together with the rest of the EU countries.
The EU is not really akin to the EEC, it is a major development that will create a megastate in Europe, what Jean Monnet called "The United States of Europe".
The "Rest of the EU countries" are busy becoming regions of the Eurozone. This will leave the UK with the option of working together with the United States of Europe or becoming a region of the USE.
This referendum really is the time to choose: Remain is ending British independence for all future generations. Leave is keeping independence and working with the new behemoth across the Channel.
Original post by newpersonage
The EU is not really akin to the EEC, it is a major development that will create a megastate in Europe, what Jean Monnet called "The United States of Europe".
The "Rest of the EU countries" are busy becoming regions of the Eurozone. This will leave the UK with the option of working together with the United States of Europe or becoming a region of the USE.
This referendum really is the time to choose: Remain is ending British independence for all future generations. Leave is keeping independence and working with the new behemoth across the Channel.
The "Rest of the EU countries" are busy becoming regions of the Eurozone. This will leave the UK with the option of working together with the United States of Europe or becoming a region of the USE.
This referendum really is the time to choose: Remain is ending British independence for all future generations. Leave is keeping independence and working with the new behemoth across the Channel.
What you just said, essentially, is that the EU is a large union of countries, just as the USA is a large union of states. The UK will have the option of joining the Eurozone or of just remaining a country in the EU but not part of the Eurozone, as it is now.
Only you wrote yours after an Orwell/Dick marathon.
Then, after dressing up those few sentences in a bunch of emotive language, you tell what we shall affectionately call a fib. That the UK would never be able to leave the EU. I'd love to see a reputable impartial source for this claim, otherwise you're doing what your pal Boris would call scaremongering. Oh wait, that's not right! Boris calls an independent body of experts making reasonable predictions scaremongering. Wow, I don't know what Boris would call what you just did if it came from the Remain side!
Original post by Snake_God 2.0
At least he has a job... and earns £38,000 per day. He can probably afford it.
Posted from TSR Mobile
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by offhegoes
What you just said, essentially, is that the EU is a large union of countries, just as the USA is a large union of states. The UK will have the option of joining the Eurozone or of just remaining a country in the EU but not part of the Eurozone, as it is now.
...
...
The EU has had Qualified Majority Voting since 2014. The Eurozone has sufficient population to control all EU decisions. Once the Eurozone is a political union the UK will be controlled by the Eurozone and will either have to join it or leave the EU.
If the UK joins a Eurozone political union then it will transfer major decisions such as referendums to the EU Parliament and Council. That is what "political union" means.
Of course, there is still your choice, just remaining a country in the EU that is governed by the Eurozone without representation but no-one will adopt it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by newpersonage
The EU has had Qualified Majority Voting since 2014. The Eurozone has sufficient population to control all EU decisions. Once the Eurozone is a political union the UK will be controlled by the Eurozone and will either have to join it or leave the EU.
If the UK joins a Eurozone political union then it will transfer major decisions such as referendums to the EU Parliament and Council. That is what "political union" means.
Of course, there is still your choice, just remaining a country in the EU that is governed by the Eurozone without representation but no-one will adopt it.
If the UK joins a Eurozone political union then it will transfer major decisions such as referendums to the EU Parliament and Council. That is what "political union" means.
Of course, there is still your choice, just remaining a country in the EU that is governed by the Eurozone without representation but no-one will adopt it.
Oh great, I especially love that I'm about to be shown some reputable sources for this information! I'm mean, it isn't like you are trying to peddle scare stories or anything!
So, I'd love to see impartial sources for:
a) The Eurozone becoming a political union, as opposed to just a bunch of EU countries that happen also to be in the EU
b) That decisions such as the ability to leave the EU will only be able to be made with the consent of the EU
c) That non-Eurozone countries will not have MEPs
So, yeah, I'm watching this space....
Oh. by the way. you must have missed the part of my last post where I asked for some sources for your claims. I mean, it wasn't a long post I made, so I'm not sure how you missed it. You even took that part out when you quoted me? Are you having trouble finding reputable sources?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by offhegoes
Oh great, I especially love that I'm about to be shown some reputable sources for this information! I'm mean, it isn't like you are trying to peddle scare stories or anything!
So, I'd love to see impartial sources for:
a) The Eurozone becoming a political union, as opposed to just a bunch of EU countries that happen also to be in the EU
b) That decisions such as the ability to leave the EU will only be able to be made with the consent of the EU
c) That non-Eurozone countries will not have MEPs
So, yeah, I'm watching this space....
So, I'd love to see impartial sources for:
a) The Eurozone becoming a political union, as opposed to just a bunch of EU countries that happen also to be in the EU
b) That decisions such as the ability to leave the EU will only be able to be made with the consent of the EU
c) That non-Eurozone countries will not have MEPs
So, yeah, I'm watching this space....
a.) The 5 President's Report was accepted by the Eurozone:
Stage 1 of EMU : http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1447860914350&uri=CELEX:52015DC0600 The target to "consolidate the euro area by early 2017" is being achieved. The advisory fiscal board is established (
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1453282201556&uri=CELEX:32015D1937 ). The "Stability and Growth Pact"
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/sgp/pdf/2015-01-13_communication_sgp_flexibility_guidelines_en.pdf
and "Two-Pack Regulation on the strengthening of budgetary monitoring" already provided the clout to enforce Stage 1.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-318_en.htm?locale=en and this year brings national budgets under Eurogroup control.
It is a shame that most people just ignore the huge sections of the Treaty on European Union and Treaty on Functioning of the EU that deal with the Eurozone because the UK has an opt out. Most of the power to create a full union is already in those treaties even without the SGP, 2 Pack, Euro Plus Pact etc. The 5 President's report is simply a route map to complete what has already been decided. The completion date is 2025.
b.) If the UK joins a political union with the Eurozone it means having the EU as government (that is the significance of "political union". A monetary union means having the ECB governing banking, a fiscal union means having the Eurogroup governing member budgets and finances, a political union means becoming a region of another country, the EU.) The crunch will come in 2025 when the Eurozone will have a single representative on the EU Council who tells the UK what the EU is doing. In 9 yrs time the UK government will take a Remain vote in this Referendum as permission to become part of the Eurogroup and that will be the end of UK independence forever.
c.) There was no claim above that non-Eurozone countries will not have MEPS, it was pointed out that the EU Council, which takes the decisions, is controlled by QMV and the Eurozone, when complete, will have 90% of the vote.
It is amazing in this campaign that the Remain argument always denies that the EU exists and attempts to make out that Maastricht and Lisbon never happened so that it can fool people into thinking that we are Remaining in the EEC rather than on the edge of a megastate being formed.
Every Eurozone leader is committed to political union:
Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor said:
"we need a political union first and foremost" (BBC News).
Francois Hollande, the French president said:
"Political union is the step that follows fiscal union, banking union, and social union. It will provide a democratic framework for successful integration." (Le Monde)
President Sergio Mattarella of Italy's inaugural speech Feb 2015:
"The EU is now once again a perspective of hope andtrue political union to be relaunched without delay."
I could quote them all but its boring. All of these leaders see full union as the answer to the problems of the Eurozone and the worse the Eurozone gets the more determined they become to complete the process, seeing failure to complete as the reason for the problems.
Why cant Remainders be honest? Why are they always playing down the EU, making out that it is the EEC? What good will it be to subvert the population of the UK into a political union when very few British people want this?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by newpersonage
If the UK joins a political union with the Eurozone it means having the EU as government (that is the significance of "political union". A monetary union means having the ECB governing banking, a fiscal union means having the Eurogroup governing member budgets and finances, a political union means becoming a region of another country, the EU.) The crunch will come in 2025 when the Eurozone will have a single representative on the EU Council who tells the UK what the EU is doing. In 9 yrs time the UK government will take a Remain vote in this Referendum as permission to become part of the Eurogroup and that will be the end of UK independence forever.
And why do you think that Article 50 from the Treaty of European Union, linked to below, which gives members the right to withdraw, will no longer apply?
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolidated_version_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union/Title_VI:_Final_Provisions#Article_50
There was no claim above that non-Eurozone countries will not have MEPS, it was pointed out that the EU Council, which takes the decisions, is controlled by QMV and the Eurozone, when complete, will have 90% of the vote.
That's no different from England having a majority vote within the UK. It doesn't give England control, it just means if England is united on a decision that the rest of the UK just have to go along with it.
It is amazing in this campaign that the Remain argument always denies that the EU exists and attempts to make out that Maastricht and Lisbon never happened so that it can fool people into thinking that we are Remaining in the EEC rather than on the edge of a megastate being formed.
Why cant Remainders be honest? Why are they always playing down the EU, making out that it is the EEC? What good will it be to subvert the population of the UK into a political union when very few British people want this?
Why cant Remainders be honest? Why are they always playing down the EU, making out that it is the EEC? What good will it be to subvert the population of the UK into a political union when very few British people want this?
Why are you using a reply to me to have a gripe about people denying that the EU exists and pretending it is the same thing as the EEC. I have done none of those things.
You don't see me using a reply to you to express my amazement at the strong correlation I see between voting Leave and low intelligence.
Original post by offhegoes
xxx
PRSOM - especially the last bit
Original post by Queen Cersei
A poll of 1,100 TSRians back in autumn showed that the majority of you want to remain in the EU: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=3621353
Does that still ring true?
How are you going to vote? Tick your choice in the poll!
Does that still ring true?
How are you going to vote? Tick your choice in the poll!
I'm too young to vote but I would vote remain!
Original post by anarchism101
I'm not particularly pro-EU, but that actually supports the point made, as virtually every conflict on that list took place in a country outside the EU at the time, and many still are.
It's also telling of how spurious your argument is when you include things like the Cod Wars and the Cherbourg incident (which had precisely 1 casualty between them); and things like Operation Harvest, the January Events and others, cannot remotely be considered 'wars', certainly not in the same way that Bosnia or Chechnya can.
When you're past all those, what you're essentially left with are things like the Troubles, the Basque conflict, and the Years of Lead - all low-intensity domestic guerilla conflicts. Problematic as they are, they're not remotely comparable to conventional state-on-state wars.
It's also telling of how spurious your argument is when you include things like the Cod Wars and the Cherbourg incident (which had precisely 1 casualty between them); and things like Operation Harvest, the January Events and others, cannot remotely be considered 'wars', certainly not in the same way that Bosnia or Chechnya can.
When you're past all those, what you're essentially left with are things like the Troubles, the Basque conflict, and the Years of Lead - all low-intensity domestic guerilla conflicts. Problematic as they are, they're not remotely comparable to conventional state-on-state wars.
Do we need listing all the "wars" in the Americas that have no EU?
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Jammy Duel
The Americas have had relatively few state-to-state wars primarily due to the geography of the region.
I'm not arguing that the EU has prevented wars in and of itself. What has prevented wars between states in Europe since WW2 is, ultimately, hegemony. During the Cold War that was American hegemony for Western Europe and Soviet hegemony for Eastern Europe. Since the end of the Cold War, the former has moved eastward to an extent, to the extent that the Russian sphere in Europe is now only really Belarus, Armenia, Serbia (and they're wavering) and the unrecognised frozen conflict ethno-states in Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova, but the principle still holds.
Original post by anarchism101
The Americas have had relatively few state-to-state wars primarily due to the geography of the region.
Have you seen central and southern America?
I'm not arguing that the EU has prevented wars in and of itself. What has prevented wars between states in Europe since WW2 is, ultimately, hegemony. During the Cold War that was American hegemony for Western Europe and Soviet hegemony for Eastern Europe. Since the end of the Cold War, the former has moved eastward to an extent, to the extent that the Russian sphere in Europe is now only really Belarus, Armenia, Serbia (and they're wavering) and the unrecognised frozen conflict ethno-states in Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova, but the principle still holds.
So what you're saying is that NATO didn't go to war with each other because of the EU, and the Warsaw pact nations didn't go to war with each other because of the EU, and then when the USSR fell with the westward expansion of NATO it was still the EU that stopped the NATO member states fighting each other?
Original post by Jammy Duel
Have you seen central and southern America?
Who have had a lot of civil and guerilla wars, relatively few conventional ones between states.
So what you're saying is that NATO didn't go to war with each other because of the EU, and the Warsaw pact nations didn't go to war with each other because of the EU, and then when the USSR fell with the westward expansion of NATO it was still the EU that stopped the NATO member states fighting each other?
I don't see how I said anything of the sort, I barely mentioned the EU. I said NATO states didn't (and don't) go to war with each other because of US hegemony, while Warsaw Pact states didn't because of Soviet hegemony.
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