64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote

Yeah, exactly. Except that a lot of the leave side moan about how the EU infringes on our rights to do what we want with British industry. Truth is, we will have to conform to those regulations if we want to keep trading with the EU anyway, might as well have a say in them.

If you don't mind not having a say, then that particular argument doesn't matter either way to you, which is fine too.

"sit it out"

marvellous.

Lets get this striaght. You are proposing to vote Remain because you believe that the EU will never become a political union? Are you really saying that you will vote for something on the basis that you believe that the European Union is not what it is and will never fulfil the intentions of the Treaties?

You do know that all Eurogroup countries have to submit draft National Budgets to the Eurogroup (and Commission) for approval? You know that banks in all Eurogroup countries have to submit their accounts to and are controlled by the ECB? The Eurogroup also meets before all EU Council Finance Meetings and presents a common policy.

Setting a National Budget, setting interest rates and having a common fiscal policy seems a long way down the road to political union to me yet you say:



They have already given up economic sovereignty!

Stage 2 of Eurozone Union begins in 2017 and is due to be completed in 2025.

See
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?qid=1447860914350&uri=CELEX:52015DC0600



You are just making this stuff up - check the link above. 26 EU countries are fully committed to "Ever Closer Union" and are implementing it as we write. The UK cannot opt out of the rest of the EU being united. Full union is scheduled for 2025. They have already achieved most of Stage 1 of Eurozone Union. Even Greece is staying in the Eurozone in hope of full political union and hence treatment as a region of the EU.

Are you yet another Remain supporter who hopes that some floating voter will read your comments and be deceived into a vision of the EU that has nothing to do with reality?

The link you've sent is one relating to an economic and monetary union, consolidating the Euro. So?

It is unlikely that the European Union will be in a position whereby member states will resemble 'regions' of Europe due to a closer political union in our lifetimes. It would imply some sort of federation, and though there are EU federalists, there aren't enough so that it would happen whilst this generation is around. Implying otherwise is needless scare mongering.

And no, I'm not trying to deceive anyone into a vision of the EU that isn't reality. I know the EU has many flaws. Can you acknowledge the fact that the 'leave' campaign has hardly any plan and very little backing from other countries for once the UK leaves the EU? How on earth are you going to go about securing the economic future of this country? Who is this country even going to trade with? I'd love to know.

Did you even bother to read my posts? I did not deny that Article 50 applies. I pointed out repeatedly that this referendum will be taken as authorisation for events only a decade away. The pro-EU UK MPs will use a Remain vote now as authorisation for joining the Eurogroup without a further Referendum.

Maybe they will, maybe they won't. We don't know who the government will be in a decade and we don't know what they'll do, so you are merely speculating without any degree of authority.

One thing we seem to be hopefully clear on is that, contrary to your earlier statements, a Remain vote does not mean that the UK will be forever in the EU with no means to leave should be decide to.

My only "speculation" is EU documents laying out the route map for Stage 2 political union by 2025.

Certainly if the UK leaves the EU before 2025 there is no chance of it being forever in the EU.

If we Remain the problem arises in 2025 when EU Council Meetings will consist of the Eurogroup representative with about 90% of the vote and the UK and Denmark. If the UK does not leave it will have to join the Eurogroup or be governed by the Eurogroup without any representation. This is only 9 years from now, all UK political parties are in favour of Remain so the government of the day will undoubtedly use the 2016 referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.

If the UK enters a full political union it will be governed from Brussels, not Westminster. Westminster will be relegated to being a regional government. Any vote for whether or not to hold any further referendum, after political union, will be held by the EU government. Sure, Article 50 applies but after political union, even to get a referendum we will have to ask the EU.

So dont vote Remain now unless you want full political union with the EU.

My only "speculation" is EU documents laying out the route map for Stage 2 political union by 2025.

Certainly if the UK leaves the EU before 2025 there is no chance of it being forever in the EU.

If we Remain the problem arises in 2025 when EU Council Meetings will consist of the Eurogroup representative with about 90% of the vote and the UK and Denmark. If the UK does not leave it will have to join the Eurogroup or be governed by the Eurogroup without any representation. This is only 9 years from now, all UK political parties are in favour of Remain so the government of the day will undoubtedly use the 2016 referendum as approval for joining the Eurogroup.

If the UK enters a full political union it will be governed from Brussels, not Westminster. Westminster will be relegated to being a regional government. Any vote for whether or not to hold any further referendum, after political union, will be held by the EU government. Sure, Article 50 applies but after political union, even to get a referendum we will have to ask the EU.

So *if* your reading that Article 50 effectively disappears after 2025 is correct, I'd say the likelihood is another referendum would have to be called in 2025.

Therefore
You can vote Remain on Thursday without requiring full political union.

Undoubtedly? So tell me, who will the government be at the time? Have you got a quote from them saying what they will do? No, you haven't. So please stop misrepresenting your speculation as fact...

Are you saying that the UK is undemocratic?

Britain is dying. Our culture is changing out of all recognition. We must control our borders or nothing worthwhile will remain. Our heritage is drawn from a combined Christian/Greco-Roman past. Our laws, our art, our science,our customs, our liberal approach to life are threatened as never before. Staying in the EU gives our future over to Brussels and its unelected officials, who are willing to allow millions to enter Europe, who do not share our heritage, who hate it in fact.

Vote leave to preserve our way of life or regret it in years to come.

An interesting and different perspective on the EU debate.

[video="youtube;eXKxHbbhQls"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKxHbbhQls[/video]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXKxHbbhQls

Britain is dying. Our culture is changing out of all recognition. We must control our borders or nothing worthwhile will remain. Our heritage is drawn from a combined Christian/Greco-Roman past. Our laws, our art, our science,our customs, our liberal approach to life are threatened as never before. Staying in the EU gives our future over to Brussels and its unelected officials, who are willing to allow millions to enter Europe, who do not share our heritage, who hate it in fact.

Vote leave to preserve our way of life or regret it in years to come.

It's scary how close this referendum is going to be due to short-sighted simpletons who wear Union Jack underwear and think we need to close the borders.

It would be a massive step back in the progression we've made and would have to be reversed at some point in the future. The entire world is going to be one large union eventually - we need to all get used to that fact and help achieve it.

So many on here for Remain are citing goverment funded scientists and economists. The bias from these individuals is great ! Surely as educated people you are taught to evaluate where the reasearch is coming from and examine the motives behind it ? You don't seem able to defend your evidence beyond stating - but government economists say.....

Do not judge the EU on future predictions as predictions are inaccurate - judge it on the clear known facts.

The facts are clear - the EU economy is poor and dropping. The GDP is low for what it should be considering the economic powerhouses involved in the EU.