The upper/working class alliance that swung Leave
The wailing and the hysterics in the Remain camp is something to behold. Some of them are saying they hope people who voted Leave are economically hurt. One idiot said "Now I know how Germans felt in 1933" (referencing the fact Hitler was elected).
But the most interesting aspect of this campaign has been, for me, how stark the class divides have been. Every upper and working class person I know voted Leave, and every middle-class person I know voted Remain. The howling you can see from the Remain camp today underlines that for them this isn't just about trade and economics, it's about their identity
Your average, boring middle-class person living in outer Croydon or St Albans uses Europeanness as a proxy for sophistication and worldliness. It's a fundamental part of their identity and their sense of their own security in themselves. Unfortunately these middle-class people often haven't even travelled outside Europe and are quite parochial and provincial in that way. They overestimate the importance of Europe and adopt a quite sneery attitude to places like Asia and Africa.
By contrast, the upper-class has always been both more comfortable in its sense of its Englshness and more outward looking (they go on holidays to places like Kenya, South Africa, Australia and South Asia). They have a strong sense of connection to this country's history and also upper-class families are disproportionately military families and they have great reverence for the battles that kept us free from European domination in 1588, 1805 and 1940.
The working-class is also extremely comfortable in its English identity. Working-class people have always had a gut patriotism (as Attlee said). I always chuckle a little bit when I think back to the beginning of the 20th century and the working-class cry regarding building more battleships to strengthen the navy and the empire was "We want eight and we won't wait!". The north-east and north-west voted overwhelmingly for Brexit because they have got little out of Europe except downward pressure on their wages and terms and conditions.
The middle-class is screaming, but this country's two most patriotic classes have swung the vote to the Leave camp. The British lion has roared!
(This quote from Orwell seems apt at this time)
But the most interesting aspect of this campaign has been, for me, how stark the class divides have been. Every upper and working class person I know voted Leave, and every middle-class person I know voted Remain. The howling you can see from the Remain camp today underlines that for them this isn't just about trade and economics, it's about their identity
Your average, boring middle-class person living in outer Croydon or St Albans uses Europeanness as a proxy for sophistication and worldliness. It's a fundamental part of their identity and their sense of their own security in themselves. Unfortunately these middle-class people often haven't even travelled outside Europe and are quite parochial and provincial in that way. They overestimate the importance of Europe and adopt a quite sneery attitude to places like Asia and Africa.
By contrast, the upper-class has always been both more comfortable in its sense of its Englshness and more outward looking (they go on holidays to places like Kenya, South Africa, Australia and South Asia). They have a strong sense of connection to this country's history and also upper-class families are disproportionately military families and they have great reverence for the battles that kept us free from European domination in 1588, 1805 and 1940.
The working-class is also extremely comfortable in its English identity. Working-class people have always had a gut patriotism (as Attlee said). I always chuckle a little bit when I think back to the beginning of the 20th century and the working-class cry regarding building more battleships to strengthen the navy and the empire was "We want eight and we won't wait!". The north-east and north-west voted overwhelmingly for Brexit because they have got little out of Europe except downward pressure on their wages and terms and conditions.
The middle-class is screaming, but this country's two most patriotic classes have swung the vote to the Leave camp. The British lion has roared!
(This quote from Orwell seems apt at this time)
England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution, from horse racing to suet puddings. It is a strange fact, but it is unquestionably true that almost any English intellectual would feel more ashamed of standing to attention during God save the King than of stealing from a poor box.
(edited 7 years ago)
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Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Original post by JordanL_
Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
An EU-funded performance hall built up the road is pretty irrelevant if EU migration has put long-term downward pressure on your wages as the Bank of England has confirmed occurred.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
I just love the Remain hysterics. You guys have nothing that resembles a sense of proportion or long-term perspective. The shrieking about how this is as bad as 1933 I found funniest. But for you people this has very little to do with economics and everything to do with your rather sad, provincial and thin sense of European identity. That's why you are so emotional
I'll admit that the Tories, and New Labour are the reasons that people feel so resentful to the status quo. In part a reason for Brexit. However part of that problem was both parties constantly ignoring immigration, which the free movement of people intensified. But we now have a blank slate, and through democracy if the people choose so they can build a new nation that they want. We could go socialist and become a mixed state with public ownership and even better public services, or go free-er market and see a laissez faire ecnomic model bring growth and change on an unprecedented scale. There has never really been a more opportune time for drastic transformation now that the shackles of EU constraint have been lifted. When life presents a challenge, it is an opportunity.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by JordanL_
Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Very sad indeed, that manufacturing towns voted to leave the EU which maintains their industries.
Original post by Thutmose-III
Your average, boring middle-class person living in outer Croydon or St Albans uses Europeanness as a proxy for sophistication and worldliness.
Yet Kensington & Chelsea voted to remain, your hypothesis is abit off i would say. Infact im sure it was more just the working class who voted leave coupled with a handful of the upper class. Most upper and middle class voted remain.
Original post by TSRFT8
Yet Kensington & Chelsea voted to remain, your hypothesis is abit off i would say. Infact im sure it was more just the working class who voted leave coupled with a handful of the upper class. Most upper and middle class voted remain.
Kensington & Chelsea isn't upper-class, it's upper-middle. This isn't America, money doesn't buy you entry into the upper-class. That appellation necessarily requires a degree of familial lineage, a connection to rural districts and country pursuits, etc. And the evidence is that these kinds of places voted Leave.
Original post by Thutmose-III
Kensington & Chelsea isn't upper-class, it's upper-middle. This isn't America, money doesn't buy you entry into the upper-class. That appellation necessarily requires a degree of familial lineage, a connection to rural districts and country pursuits, etc. And the evidence is that these kinds of places voted Leave.
But money is what the majority of people use now a days to calculate "class" or are you using other means to differentiate between the classes.
Its subjective anyway in terms of what "class" you are however i was under the impression wealth was more commonly used now a days.
Original post by Swanbow
I'll admit that the Tories, and New Labour are the reasons that people feel so resentful to the status quo. In part a reason for Brexit. However part of that problem was both parties constantly ignoring immigration, which the free movement of people intensified. But we now have a blank slate, and through democracy if the people choose so they can build a new nation that they want. We could go socialist and become a mixed state with public owner and even better public services, or go free-er market and see a laissez faire ecnomic model bring growth and change on an unprecedented scale. There has never really been a more opportune time for drastic transformation now that the shackles of EU constraint have been lifted. When life presents a challenge, it is an opportunity.
Well said. There are plenty of successful countries that aren't members of the EU. Switzerland, Singapore, Australia, Canada. There is no reason why we can't enjoy fruitful trade relations and co-operation with our European neighbours.
And more fundamentally, as you have aptly pointed out, this frees us up to start to have the really fundamental conversations about what kind of country we want to be. As a socialist I feel that in some ways this will actually bring people over to the Labour side; if the right of the Tory Party goes ahead and repeals some of those fundamental workers' rights like paid holidays and others, it will allow the broad, sensible centre of Britons to truly see what they value and which party represents their interests.
Our membership of the EU locked us into both neoliberal and social democratic provisions that prevented us from having to have these conversations and really decide what country we want to be.
Original post by JordanL_
Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Indeed, many seem to think this is an anti-establishment vote, but in the process of hitting back at the Brussels elite, they're only making the Westminster elite stronger, it looks like already Leave have gone back on their promises to fund the NHS and reduce immigration, and for all that moaning that the EU is undemocratic, it appears the next PM will be decided solely by Tory members.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by TSRFT8
But money is what the majority of people use now a days to calculate "class" or are you using other means to differentiate between the classes.
Its subjective anyway in terms of what "class" you are however i was under the impression wealth was more commonly used now a days.
Its subjective anyway in terms of what "class" you are however i was under the impression wealth was more commonly used now a days.
When I say "upper-class" in my OP I'm referring to the traditional upper-class; people who are public school educated, who tend to Oxbridge more than the average, who wear old sweaters at home and out of date dinner jackets when they go out, drive Volvos or Range Rovers, like dogs, play cricket and vote Conservative. People who have a strong connection to the shires and to rural life, and a family lineage to go with it. I know quite a few people like this, and they all voted Leave, as did all of the working-class people I know.
Original post by Olie
Indeed, many seem to think this is an anti-establishment vote, but in the process of hitting back at the Brussels elite, they're only making the Westminster elite stronger and for all that moaning that the EU is undemocratic, it appears the next PM will be decided by Tory members.
The Westminster "elite" can be voted out. The European Commission cannot.
As for the next PM being decided by Tory members.. yes that is how Westminster government works. It has occurred repeatedly in the last hundred years (Gordon Brown, John Major, Callaghan etc etc). In fact, the government went into the last election explicitly on the basis that Cameron would be replaced during the term
Original post by JordanL_
Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
It will be a cruel irony when they suffer. It still shouldn't be allowed to happen. But what can be done.
Original post by JordanL_
Clueless turkeys voting for Christmas. The EU invested heavily in the parts of the country that our government left to rot. They redistributed wealth to the people needing it the most while our government hoarded it and gave tax cuts to their rich friends.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
Sad that the most vulnerable people have been so easily manipulated. They think they've just won their battle against the oppressive elites, when they've actually been used by the elites in a political game.
The worst part is that most people will never realise. In a few years when the NHS is still failing, houses are still in short supply, schools are still falling to bits, its not going to occur to any Brexiters "maybe the EU wasn't the problem". They'll just find a new target for their hate.
First thing I have read and ever really agreed with from you.
Original post by 16characterlimit
It will be a cruel irony when they suffer.
The Stronger in Europe campaign head told a parliamentary select committee that we should not Leave the EU as that will cause wages to rise. Says everything about the corporatist motivations of the Remain camp
It still shouldn't be allowed to happen
The fascist tendencies of the Remainers are coming out. They want to overturn the democratic will of the people and usher in authoritarianism
Original post by Thutmose-III
The Stronger in Europe campaign head told a parliamentary select committee that we should not Leave the EU as that will cause wages to rise. Says everything about the corporatist motivations of the Remain camp
The fascist tendencies of the Remainers are coming out. They want to overturn the democratic will of the people and usher in authoritarianism
The fascist tendencies of the Remainers are coming out. They want to overturn the democratic will of the people and usher in authoritarianism
Yeah, I'm sorry that I don't want to see a mile long welfare line, gosh such a fascist. I'm sure fascists like Hitler and Stalin also worried about the welfare of people they disagreed with.
Hmm, maybe this is what the Leave campaign meant by Europe being fascist? That the EU wanted our best interests at heart? Also nice job cherry picking what I wrote.
Original post by Thutmose-III
An EU-funded performance hall built up the road is pretty irrelevant if EU migration has put long-term downward pressure on your wages as the Bank of England has confirmed occurred.
Where do you think jobs come from? The EU wanted to create more jobs, you want to get rid of the competition.
34%+ EU immigrants are university educated. They aren't coming to steal your job if your job is minimum wage manual labour. 22% of non-EU immigrants are university educated, and there are more of them, even though we have full control of non-EU immigration. We could have reduced wage pressure by controlling the immigration that's far less beneficial and that we CAN control. Instead we chose to leave behind the products of 40 years of hard work and isolate ourselves from the world, to reduce the most beneficial immigration, when we aren't even controlling the other immigration.
This isn't logical, reasonable or proportionate. People wanted a Brexit because of the narrative. They wanted something to rally behind and get excited about and to feel important. Facts and expert opinions aren't as exciting as TAKING BACK CONTROL™
Original post by 16characterlimit
Yes, if you want to overturn the clear democratic will of the people because you "know better" then you are an authoritarian fascist.
I'm sure fascists like Hitler and Stalin also worried about the welfare of people they disagreed with.
Hitler and Stalin took the same attitude you do; that they know better than the people and thus democracy must not be permitted. Hitler and Stalin also believed that what they were doing was broadly in the long-term interests of their people
Original post by Thutmose-III
I just love the Remain hysterics. You guys have nothing that resembles a sense of proportion or long-term perspective. The shrieking about how this is as bad as 1933 I found funniest. But for you people this has very little to do with economics and everything to do with your rather sad, provincial and thin sense of European identity. That's why you are so emotional
I just love the Remain hysterics. You guys have nothing that resembles a sense of proportion or long-term perspective. The shrieking about how this is as bad as 1933 I found funniest. But for you people this has very little to do with economics and everything to do with your rather sad, provincial and thin sense of European identity. That's why you are so emotional
Glad it wasn't just the idiots on my facebook wall who were comparing it to that.
Original post by Arkasia
Glad it wasn't just the idiots on my facebook wall who were comparing it to that.
The irony is that the Remainers are the ones talking about suspending democracy and ushering in a period of authoritarianism to overturn the referendum result as "they know best".
Also, the people attacking Boris Johnson in the streets are acting like fascist blackshirts
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