Humanity has just taken a step backwards

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Totally agree with you. Massively panicked and totally ashamed of the country today. Everyone who voted Leave, this is on you.

Original post by Grand High Witch

No, it's on the EU for failing to put a more viable deal on the table. I am confident that Brexit would not have been so popular had the EU not resisted real reform in the areas of concern shared not just in the UK but across Europe.

Entirely this; spot on.

@Miracle Day
@elitepower

Did you know, for example, back in 2005 Tony Blair aimed to reform the Common Agricultural Policy in return for 20% of the UK refund (rebate/correction), but there was no reform and we lost the 20% because the EU never kept their end of the bargain?

net contribution to the EU cropped document.jpg

net contribution to the EU cropped document.jpg

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/483344/EU_finances_2015_final_web_09122015.pdf#page=18

That was a synoptic graph I made.

I believe it was 2009 when this took effect.

Our refund (rebate) was 14.77 million a day in 2009, but the next year it was 8.35 million; a 43.47% decrease!

So much for this being a "progressive", "honest", "humanitarian" institution when it conned us, you fools!

Edit #1: The graph is the average price per day, in millions, in each consecutive year.

Notice how our net contribution has only really gone up?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 21

elitepower

Original post by XcitingStuart

When did I ever say the EU is perfect or even progressive, honest or humanitarian?

The Leave campaign has caused reckless damage with no plan to recover and we are in a total disaster. I'm sure the EU has flaws but with the country about to rip itself apart over the ZERO benefits we have seen, I'd stick with it.

Reply 22

Plagioclase

Original post by Luke Kostanjsek

I'm too tired and sick of this nonsense to have an argument but I will say this. Every single pro-Brexit argument is either not going to change with a Brexit, or actually has nothing to do with Europe, Europe being the scapegoat for domestic failings. The poor of Britain being poor has absolutely nothing to do with us being a member of the European Union, it is the result of governments repeatedly working for the elite at the expense of the poor and a global financial system that is inextricably linked with inequality. Rather than admit domestic guilt, the British have decided to live inside a fantasy. All of this has been shown time and time again by experts who actually know what they're talking about, but of course the British Public would rather blame their issues on outsiders and daydream about the stone dead days of the British Empire. This is a tragedy for the United Kingdom and the worst thing of all is that when it finally dawns on the public what a terrible mistake they have made, they will simply find someone else to blame it on. It's a vicious circle of anti-intellectualism where it is a crime to have an informed opinion.

I am not in the slightest bit ashamed for having this view and if it caused us to lose the referendum, so be it. I would rather be in the right than stoop down to the disgraceful lows of the leave campaign.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 23

Miracle Day

Original post by Plagioclase

I'm too tired and sick of this nonsense to have an argument but I will say this. Every single pro-Brexit argument is either not going to change with a Brexit, or actually has nothing to do with Europe, Europe being the scapegoat for domestic failings. The poor of Britain being poor has absolutely nothing to do with us being a member of the European Union, it is the result of governments repeatedly working for the elite at the expense of the poor and a global financial system that is inextricably linked with inequality. Rather than admit domestic guilt, the British have decided to live inside a fantasy. All of this has been shown time and time again by experts who actually know what they're talking about, but of course the British Public would rather blame their issues on outsiders and daydream about the stone dead days of the British Empire. This is a tragedy for the United Kingdom and the worst thing of all is that when it finally dawns on the public what a terrible mistake they have made, they will simply find someone else to blame it on. It's a vicious circle of anti-intellectualism where it is a crime to have an informed opinion.

I am not in the slightest bit ashamed for having this opinion and if it caused us to lose the referendum, so be it. I would rather be in the right than stoop down to the disgraceful lows of the leave campaign.

This is such a well written post, it deserves to be shared a thousand times over. Bravo!

Reply 24

Luke Kostanjsek

Original post by Plagioclase

I'm too tired and sick of this nonsense to have an argument but I will say this. Every single pro-Brexit argument is either not going to change with a Brexit, or actually has nothing to do with Europe, Europe being the scapegoat for domestic failings. The poor of Britain being poor has absolutely nothing to do with us being a member of the European Union, it is the result of governments repeatedly working for the elite at the expense of the poor and a global financial system that is inextricably linked with inequality. All of this has been shown time and time again by experts who actually know what they're talking about, but of course the British Public would rather blame their issues on outsiders and daydream about the stone dead days of the British Empire. This is a tragedy for the United Kingdom and the worst thing of all is that when it finally dawns on the public what a terrible mistake they have made, they will simply find someone else to blame it on. It's a vicious circle of anti-intellectualism where it is a crime to have an informed opinion.

I am not in the slightest bit ashamed for having this opinion and if it caused us to lose the referendum, so be it. I would rather be in the right than stoop down to the disgraceful low of the leave campaign.

Firstly, there is plenty of evidence that in times of poor economic growth (like now) immigration pushes the wages of the worst off down by anything from 5-10%. There's also plenty of evidence that the NHS is struggling to cope with demand and that housing prices are being driven up by ever increasing demand. Now at no point have I said the blame for this lies entirely on immigration; I said that immigration contributes to these things, which is a fact.

So what you're saying is, no one who has an informed opinion could decide to vote leave? You're doing it again. You're saying that the only way you could vote leave is if you're thick or bigoted. It's disgusting. I came to the decision to leave for many reasons, and it was most certainly something I gave a great deal of thought to, as I'm sure is true for the vast majority of the rest of those who voted to leave. It wasn't a spur of the moment, '**** the immigrants' decision. Your response to people who hold an entirely legitimate difference of opinion to your own is petulant, and ironically incredibly anti-intellectual.

You're not ashamed to have no regard for people who disagree with you? Well, I would suggest that says it all. It's an utter lack of respect, and sadly it reflects a view that seems pervasive amongst remainers. As I said, enjoy your self-styled moral victory. Thanks to exactly these kinds of arguments, it's the only victory you're enjoying today.

Reply 25

Rorschach II

Original post by Plagioclase

I'm too tired and sick of this nonsense to have an argument but I will say this. Every single pro-Brexit argument is either not going to change with a Brexit, or actually has nothing to do with Europe, Europe being the scapegoat for domestic failings. The poor of Britain being poor has absolutely nothing to do with us being a member of the European Union, it is the result of governments repeatedly working for the elite at the expense of the poor and a global financial system that is inextricably linked with inequality. Rather than admit domestic guilt, the British have decided to live inside a fantasy. All of this has been shown time and time again by experts who actually know what they're talking about, but of course the British Public would rather blame their issues on outsiders and daydream about the stone dead days of the British Empire. This is a tragedy for the United Kingdom and the worst thing of all is that when it finally dawns on the public what a terrible mistake they have made, they will simply find someone else to blame it on. It's a vicious circle of anti-intellectualism where it is a crime to have an informed opinion.

I am not in the slightest bit ashamed for having this opinion and if it caused us to lose the referendum, so be it. I would rather be in the right than stoop down to the disgraceful lows of the leave campaign.

No, it is you who is being the anti-intellectualist.

I feel it is our obligation to scrutinise the opinions and arguments of so-called "experts".
Not doing so would be anti-intellectual, because it's showing a disregard for a more scientific methodology, where scepticism and scrutiny are shown throughout the whole community.
When I get past the Bremainers who say "because experts say so" (ugh they're common, with their ring leader Sadiq Khan), I find that most of the arguments used have no credibility and those that do have credibility are uncommon enough that the Brexit camp arguments greatly outweigh them.

Reply 26

username1204031

I agree. More than the implications for our economy and everything else, I think the worst thing is that we've destroyed such a good union. The EU looked after the poor and dealt with issues that nobody wanted to deal with, and on an international scale. We ruined it because some nationalists wanted to feel special.

Reply 27

Rorschach II

Original post by Miracle Day

This is such a well written post, it deserves to be shared a thousand times over. Bravo!

You can at least reply to my post instead of only reading posts that agree with you to confirm your biases.

Reply 28

Miracle Day

Original post by XcitingStuart

You can at least reply to my post instead of only reading posts that agree with you to confirm your biases.

Have you actually spoken to anyone working class that wanted to Leave? Millions do not have well thought out and contrived arguments against immigration. Not to mention they took a parochial, one dimensioned approach to the entire debate - sidestepping the social and economic arguments in favour of anti-immigration rhetoric.

Get out of your bubble.

Reply 29

Rorschach II

Original post by Miracle Day

I am working class.

**** off.

Reply 30

ODES_PDES

Original post by Miracle Day

Congratulations to the Leave camp, that have focused entirely on the immigration and not the swathes of other benefits our membership has brought.

There is now a very real chance Farage's vision of this continent will come to life. On BBC News he spoke about countries divided, that work together without any kind of Union. There is now a very real chance that the Eurosceptic rhetoric will win and break up this Union, which has united a continent.

How will we tackle the biggest problems that face humanity if we are segregated? Global warming, nuclear disarment, poverty, antibiotic resistance. In the wider sense, this can only be done with a feeling and sense of cohesion and unity. The EU will, if it survives go on trying to tackle humanity's problems without the UK. Unfortunately, belligerent nationalism has triumphed.

Immigration is a huge issue to me

Reply 31

username944192

Stop scaremongering. What a load of *******s.

Reply 32

Josb

"Humanity". Remainers really have a sense of measure.

Reply 33

the bear

Original post by Grand High Witch

Norway manages to cooperate adequately with the rest of Europe without being part of the EU.

Name three Norwegians.

Reply 34

Josb

Original post by Miracle Day

You have to wonder why market towns with Eastern European minorities voted Leave, and why Labour strongholds voted Leave.

Reply 35

username402722

Whether we have taken a step backwards is open to debate. I suggest we would take several steps backwards were Boris Johnson to become Prime Minister, a man who would be the worst since either Eden or Chamberlain, or perhaps even the Earl of Aberdeen (who led us into the Crimean War).

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 36

Josb

Original post by the bear

Name three Norwegians.

the bear
The Usherette
The terrorist guy.

:ahee:

Reply 37

the bear

Original post by Josb

the bear
The Usherette
The terrorist guy.

:ahee:

have some Norwegian scran:

Reply 38

DJKL

Original post by barnetlad

But you missed out Lord North whose only notable attribute in school taught history is he lost us our American colonies. Give it a hundred years and DC will be remembered for losing (insert as required over next couple of years).. :smile: