Brexit Myths dissected- taking down remainers 1 by 1
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Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
Scotland ain't going anywhere, no matter how much they want to be in the EU. The economic argument for Scottish independence was suspect two years ago; currently, with oil prices in the toilet, it's nonexistent.
Lol they so are buddy
Original post by alevelstresss
Lol they so are buddy
How can you say that the English economy will be 'demolished' due to Brexit but advocate Scotland gaining independence when it has a far weaker economy and is already subsidised by England.
Original post by alevelstresss
Lol they so are buddy
A compelling retort, you've got me convinced........
So what exactly is an independent Scottish economy going to be built around? They won't have a currency union because they weren't gonna get one last time, their single biggest resource has had it's value slashed and they'd be forced to reapply for the EU as an outsider because that is what they were told last time too.
Original post by richpanda
How can you say that the English economy will be 'demolished' due to Brexit but advocate Scotland gaining independence when it has a far weaker economy and is already subsidised by England.
because Scotland can become independent and therefore remain in the EU, whilst we leave
are you even following the news?
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
A compelling retort, you've got me convinced........
So what exactly is an independent Scottish economy going to be built around? They won't have a currency union because they weren't gonna get one last time, their single biggest resource has had it's value slashed and they'd be forced to reapply for the EU as an outsider because that is what they were told last time too.
So what exactly is an independent Scottish economy going to be built around? They won't have a currency union because they weren't gonna get one last time, their single biggest resource has had it's value slashed and they'd be forced to reapply for the EU as an outsider because that is what they were told last time too.
Do you even keep up with the news? Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for a referendum and it will almost certainly happen.
Original post by alevelstresss
Do you even keep up with the news? Nicola Sturgeon is pushing for a referendum and it will almost certainly happen.
You are aware of the difference between holding a referendum and winning it? Why do you think that Sturgeon has given no timetable for this second referendum? It's cause she doesn't think she'd win it right now.
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
A compelling retort, you've got me convinced........
So what exactly is an independent Scottish economy going to be built around? They won't have a currency union because they weren't gonna get one last time, their single biggest resource has had it's value slashed and they'd be forced to reapply for the EU as an outsider because that is what they were told last time too.
So what exactly is an independent Scottish economy going to be built around? They won't have a currency union because they weren't gonna get one last time, their single biggest resource has had it's value slashed and they'd be forced to reapply for the EU as an outsider because that is what they were told last time too.
I wouldn't rely on the currency union argument.
If we refused that then they'd likely not accept their share of the national debt, which they could do if they vote for Independence as it is owed by the UK govt.
Original post by JamesN88
I wouldn't rely on the currency union argument.
If we refused that then they'd likely not accept their share of the national debt, which they could do if they vote for Independence as it is owed by the UK govt.
If we refused that then they'd likely not accept their share of the national debt, which they could do if they vote for Independence as it is owed by the UK govt.
The currency union is the tip of an iceberg. The real issue would be the value of oil. The price has dropped substantially since the first referendum and is showing no signs of recovering, especially given as the gulf states - especially the Saudis - are showing no appetite to reduce production for fear of losing market share to the Iranians and the US. The economic argument for Scottish independence was suspicious the first time around; now, without the oil reserves to lean on, there isn't any argument at all. The next White Paper would be aptly named, cause there'd be nothing to write on it!
Original post by richpanda
1. The economy has crashed.
This is simply false. There was an initial (expected) drop in the market indexes, but it has strongly recovered during the day. In fact, the FTSE 100 is now higher than it was on Monday.
2. 16/17 being able to vote could have swung the referendum.
Leave won by 1.3m votes. Even if EVERY SINGLE 16/17 year voted in favour of remain, we would have still left.
3. Old people shouldn't have been able to vote.
This is simply disgusting, I didn't expect the bremainers to sink this far. They are legally adults, they have paid their taxes and in many cases fought for our country. How dare you say that they shouldn't have a vote, when you still live off your parent's back and the state.
Apologies if you are a bremainer who has taken the result on their chin and accepted that it is a democratic process. However I am just fed up with the nonsense from some people.
This is simply false. There was an initial (expected) drop in the market indexes, but it has strongly recovered during the day. In fact, the FTSE 100 is now higher than it was on Monday.
2. 16/17 being able to vote could have swung the referendum.
Leave won by 1.3m votes. Even if EVERY SINGLE 16/17 year voted in favour of remain, we would have still left.
3. Old people shouldn't have been able to vote.
This is simply disgusting, I didn't expect the bremainers to sink this far. They are legally adults, they have paid their taxes and in many cases fought for our country. How dare you say that they shouldn't have a vote, when you still live off your parent's back and the state.
Apologies if you are a bremainer who has taken the result on their chin and accepted that it is a democratic process. However I am just fed up with the nonsense from some people.
I voted remain, and stand by my decision, but agree with all of your points. Just to elaborate on them from a remain point of view, and one which is still remain.
1. Yes, the economy has not crashed - but we've put it at risk, in my mind totally unnecessarily, and I believe that we'll have limited its potential future growth. The recent changes to the value of the pound show that the international community certainly does not trust the decision of the British public. I do not think this is good news for British trade and am appalled that people have deluded themselves into thinking that we've somehow 'liberated' ourselves of the EU and now the whole world will come flocking to us for trade agreements. They won't beyond being initially polite so as to not appear undemocratic. This is what they are currently doing.
2. Again, agreed, it would not have swung the referendum. It is important to note that the 'politicians of tomorrow' were pro-EU though. It's thus a shame that their future has been so heavily influenced by people who won't have to deal with the consequences for as long, but this is a democracy, and we are all equal regardless of age (so long as it falls in voting age of course!)
3. Linking back two point two - this hits home in particular for me https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cltu_AbWMAARCDH.jpg But yes, again, all should get to vote. However, some of the people defending the older generations' votes have said that 'they fought the Nazis' as though this somehow justified the decisions? This is not only unlikely - since unfortunately most will have passed away - but also makes little sense with what we know of that generation, seeing as they've experienced right-wing radicalism, like we might see rising a bit in Europe at the moment. (I'm not suggesting Brexiters are right wing radicals, but I am suggesting that far-right parties such as France's rather racist front national, will, and are actively, rejoicing due to the decision as it sets a precedent for them.) The older generations who voted 'out' are the baby boomers and due to the horrendous state they've left the economy in previously and all the benefits they reaped when they were younger, I unfortunately don't feel terribly warmly towards them.
That said, suggesting that they shouldn't have had a vote is absurd.
I'm sorry some remainers are being difficult. I'm personally rather crushed by the result and I really hope we make it out of this without too much damage. The Leave campaign did not seem to have much of a plan beyond 'leave the EU' when they were campaigning, this was one of my primary grievances when it came to 'Leave'. I hope I was wrong and that there is a plan, as we are going to need it. Maybe not in the next five years, but definitely in the next twenty.
We need to stay united, otherwise this really will be a mess. After all, we all want Britain (and I think also Europe?) to do well.
Have a nice day!
Original post by Luke Kostanjsek
The currency union is the tip of an iceberg. The real issue would be the value of oil. The price has dropped substantially since the first referendum and is showing no signs of recovering, especially given as the gulf states - especially the Saudis - are showing no appetite to reduce production for fear of losing market share to the Iranians and the US. The economic argument for Scottish independence was suspicious the first time around; now, without the oil reserves to lean on, there isn't any argument at all. The next White Paper would be aptly named, cause there'd be nothing to write on it!
This is pure speculation on my part but if they ran on a campaign based on leaving the UK and not having a national debt then it might convince a lot of people. I can also see the EU being prepared to consider them as having not left and rejoining merely a formality in the event of a vote for independence, again it's just speculation but not inconceivable.
Original post by richpanda
Your entire argument has no substance. You are arguing against democracy in its most simple and effective form, the voice of the people. Gee, I wonder which other nations had such a negative view towards referendums. Couldn't possibly be North Korea, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy could it?
Yeah... not really. That's how our democracy functions normally. We elect politicians, they make decisions. Typical of Brexiteers to start throwing around random accusations of Nazism though.
You still haven't addressed the points I actually made. Are you going to? What happened to taking down the remainers 1 by 1?
Original post by JamesN88
I wouldn't rely on the currency union argument.
If we refused that then they'd likely not accept their share of the national debt, which they could do if they vote for Independence as it is owed by the UK govt.
If we refused that then they'd likely not accept their share of the national debt, which they could do if they vote for Independence as it is owed by the UK govt.
I don't think it really works like that. Not accepting the national debt was simply one of the numerous magical unicorns Alex Salmond was pulling out of his butt. Scotland can't really refuse it's share of the national debt, while rump-UK is more than entitled to refuse to give a foreign country policy powers over it's currency.
Ultimately if it came to a tit-for-tat war with England, England wins.
Original post by pol pot noodles
I don't think it really works like that. Not accepting the national debt was simply one of the numerous magical unicorns Alex Salmond was pulling out of his butt. Scotland can't really refuse it's share of the national debt, while rump-UK is more than entitled to refuse to give a foreign country policy powers over it's currency.
Ultimately if it came to a tit-for-tat war with England, England wins.
Ultimately if it came to a tit-for-tat war with England, England wins.
It was on the table but advised against.
https://next.ft.com/content/1df1c950-2dff-11e4-b760-00144feabdc0
Europes stocks tanked though, much more damage has been done to the EU so investers will seek safehaven in UK stocks which barely fell
Original post by JamesN88
This is pure speculation on my part but if they ran on a campaign based on leaving the UK and not having a national debt then it might convince a lot of people. I can also see the EU being prepared to consider them as having not left and rejoining merely a formality in the event of a vote for independence, again it's just speculation but not inconceivable.
Even with no share of the national debt, where is Scotland going to make money? They don't have any great manufacturing sector, they don't have any share of the services sector and their natural resources are worth peanuts.
I voted in. But there are some valuable points to leave, apart from immigration. The whole point of the EU union is to artificially lower the value of Germany's currency, so they can competitively sell their cars, even though they are the 4th biggest economy. This whole 1 law for 28 countries. Not being able to change laws, such as tax on sanitary towel (just off the top of my head).
Original post by richpanda
Oh no, our credit rating might be downgraded to AAB, which is as bad as the economic failure known as Australia!
No they shouldn't. The vote also affects 8 year olds, should they be allowed to vote?
They do have to live with it. Do you think that they don't care about their children and grandchildren? They are experienced in life, more so than us.
I can see why they call it the regressive left now.
No they shouldn't. The vote also affects 8 year olds, should they be allowed to vote?
They do have to live with it. Do you think that they don't care about their children and grandchildren? They are experienced in life, more so than us.
I can see why they call it the regressive left now.
I can't say that I have researched into the implications of leaving the EU. However, I don't feel that anyone can be sure of the implications. There are just so many factors that have to be taken into account. I based my decsion on voting to remain in the EU based on the fact that I, personally, don't feel the economy is in a bad state. As a result, I don't think it's necessary to take the risk of leaving the EU which may, or may not, be bad.
That being said, I do agree that, in general from what I've seen, people on the remain side have been rather disgraceful in saying that older people shouldn't have a say. Especially since most of this is coming after the results.
So I have to agree with you on the points you've made here. However, I would like to hear your response in regards to the risk involved in the decision. Why did you want to leave the EU? What's so bad about being in the EU, and why do you think leaving will fix this?
Original post by JamesN88
It was on the table but advised against.
https://next.ft.com/content/1df1c950-2dff-11e4-b760-00144feabdc0
https://next.ft.com/content/1df1c950-2dff-11e4-b760-00144feabdc0
Right, but it wasn't really 'on the table'. It was never a conceivable idea. Alex Salmond waffled some serious nonsense during that referendum. He was basically that sketch out of Monkey Dust of Tony Blair's manifesto, promising the world to voters.
'A fluffy kitten for every small child, in a cute little bow, called Mittens. Everyones neighbours to be Tom and Barbara out of The Good Life. The blind to see and the lame to walk. Pubs that stay open after eleven. Terrorism to be phased out by 2006. Three wishes to come true for every household. Free trips to the moon for pensioners, in a magic rocket. Slightly fewer speed cameras. Every child's wish to come true. Misery to be phased out and replaced by happy things. Magic beans for every household. University education to be free again. All wars everywhere to end, unless we win. A teleporting device in every house. England to win every sporting event in the world every week of the year. Trains that actually turn up. Eternal life is a right not a privilege. River water to be replaced by lager, rain to be replaced by sweats. All exam grades below A to be abolished. Houses people can actually afford.'
Original post by pol pot noodles
Right, but it wasn't really 'on the table'. It was never a conceivable idea. Alex Salmond waffled some serious nonsense during that referendum. He was basically that sketch out of Monkey Dust of Tony Blair's manifesto, promising the world to voters.
'A fluffy kitten for every small child, in a cute little bow, called Mittens. Everyones neighbours to be Tom and Barbara out of The Good Life. The blind to see and the lame to walk. Pubs that stay open after eleven. Terrorism to be phased out by 2006. Three wishes to come true for every household. Free trips to the moon for pensioners, in a magic rocket. Slightly fewer speed cameras. Every child's wish to come true. Misery to be phased out and replaced by happy things. Magic beans for every household. University education to be free again. All wars everywhere to end, unless we win. A teleporting device in every house. England to win every sporting event in the world every week of the year. Trains that actually turn up. Eternal life is a right not a privilege. River water to be replaced by lager, rain to be replaced by sweats. All exam grades below A to be abolished. Houses people can actually afford.'
'A fluffy kitten for every small child, in a cute little bow, called Mittens. Everyones neighbours to be Tom and Barbara out of The Good Life. The blind to see and the lame to walk. Pubs that stay open after eleven. Terrorism to be phased out by 2006. Three wishes to come true for every household. Free trips to the moon for pensioners, in a magic rocket. Slightly fewer speed cameras. Every child's wish to come true. Misery to be phased out and replaced by happy things. Magic beans for every household. University education to be free again. All wars everywhere to end, unless we win. A teleporting device in every house. England to win every sporting event in the world every week of the year. Trains that actually turn up. Eternal life is a right not a privilege. River water to be replaced by lager, rain to be replaced by sweats. All exam grades below A to be abolished. Houses people can actually afford.'
Like I said in my other post I was speculating. I'm not arguing in favour them doing this.
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