Petition calling for 2nd Referendum - and write to your MP
Scroll to see replies
Original post by AverageExcellence
Nigel Farage does not = official leave campaign..nice tu quo fallacy
Doesn't matter if he's "official" or not. He is the reason why the referendum was called. He appeared on the ITV Debate, same as David Cameron. He is regarded as a key figure in the leave campaign by many in the electorate.
Original post by adam9317
At the end of the day, the people have spoken, and by a margin of 1.2 million people, the people of our country have voted to leave!
52:48 which funnily was also the margin that exercised your leader.
And I don't doubt there won't be a 2nd Ref soon. I've said as much many times.
It's just that others keep posting in here so I keep replying...
Original post by jneill
Doesn't matter if he's "official" or not. He is the reason why the referendum was called. He appeared on the ITV Debate, same as David Cameron. He is regarded as a key figure in the leave campaign by many in the electorate.
False, it was called because issues with the EU had become an issue, are you seriously suggesting the EU referendum is solely the work of farage bringing up the issue? by that logic Salmond is the main reason scotland had an Indyref and sturgeon is the likely cause of indyref2.. cry me a river with your misleading simplification.
He wasn't even on the official leave and won't be on any of the official brexit negotiations.. to make out what he's said is some sort of precedent is a joke. Hence why you are in minority even among remainers.
Anjem Choudary supported remain officially... do people draw parallels? ofc not.
Original post by Manchester_123
Instead of attacking people, you should try having a go at the argument itself. You'll boost your ostensible intelligence.
The petition was started BEFORE the vote because the person in question believed the vote was rigged. The very same person has asked for it to be taken down.
You are a big boy or a big girl but big boy/girl did not do his/her research
The petition was started BEFORE the vote because the person in question believed the vote was rigged. The very same person has asked for it to be taken down.
You are a big boy or a big girl but big boy/girl did not do his/her research
My point exactly. I have done my research thank you very much.
The guy only stands by the petition if it benefits him. But now that his side won, he has distanced himself from it
What you guys are saying is that either you want a 2nd referendum or you don't, regardless of who won it. Yet that's not what he did.
Original post by jneill
52:48 which funnily was also the margin that exercised your leader.
And I don't doubt there won't be a 2nd Ref soon. I've said as much many times.
It's just that others keep posting in here so I keep replying...
And I don't doubt there won't be a 2nd Ref soon. I've said as much many times.
It's just that others keep posting in here so I keep replying...
Had to read that a number of times to get the wording with negatives crossing out negatives
In the event that there was a 2nd ref, however unlikely, we would see mass uprisings in the streets, and major discontent among the leave, greater in volume than those seen today in London
Original post by AverageExcellence
False, it was called because issues with the EU had become an issue, are you seriously suggesting the EU referendum is solely the work of farage bringing up the issue? by that logic Salmond is the main reason scotland had an Indyref and sturgeon is the likely cause of indyref2.. cry me a river with your misleading simplification.
He wasn't even on the official leave and won't be on any of the official brexit negotiations.. to make out what he's said is some sort of precedent is a joke. Hence why you are in minority even among remainers.
Anjem Choudary supported remain officially... do people draw parallels? ofc not.
He wasn't even on the official leave and won't be on any of the official brexit negotiations.. to make out what he's said is some sort of precedent is a joke. Hence why you are in minority even among remainers.
Anjem Choudary supported remain officially... do people draw parallels? ofc not.
There have been issues with the EU/UK relationship since we joined it. But specifically if Cameron and the senior members of the Conservative Party weren't worried about UKIP they wouldn't have included the EUref promise in the Tory manifesto. UKIP = Farage.
And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.
Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
I voted remain, campaigned for remain even. But the result is the result and I think we should go ahead and leave.
Saying that however, as much as a referendum is a form of direct democracy and growing more important in UK politics, with at least 7 taking place between 1997 and 2016, another form of direct democracy is as powerful, and is as equally democratic and that is the protest. Protesting has not always been legal, going back hundreds of years, but the British are very good at it, and really it is protest which has formed the cornerstone of our society, being the force driving change in society, be it workers rights, female suffrage, equal pay and more.
So while it is fair to say we should accept the democratic mandate of the referendum, people equally have a democratic right, a very fundamental and very British right to protest. And protest like a referendum is a pure form of democracy, it is direct democracy, as are petitions which are also being used.
As such rather than just dismissing these people, calling them crybabies and undemocratic and to get over it, open diologue with them, don't belittle them but have a debate with them, these people are scared, they feel lost and betrayed and like someone has come and closed so many doors they could have gone through as they progressed though life. Progress is not made by standing above others pointing down and laughing but by engaging people on the same level.
Many of those who voted to remain, such as myself, don't love the EU, many actually see very large flaws in the EU, but felt it was the best option to stay in, so they will understand the sovereignty arguments for example. We should want to welcome debate, not just pointing and blaming on both sides
Saying that however, as much as a referendum is a form of direct democracy and growing more important in UK politics, with at least 7 taking place between 1997 and 2016, another form of direct democracy is as powerful, and is as equally democratic and that is the protest. Protesting has not always been legal, going back hundreds of years, but the British are very good at it, and really it is protest which has formed the cornerstone of our society, being the force driving change in society, be it workers rights, female suffrage, equal pay and more.
So while it is fair to say we should accept the democratic mandate of the referendum, people equally have a democratic right, a very fundamental and very British right to protest. And protest like a referendum is a pure form of democracy, it is direct democracy, as are petitions which are also being used.
As such rather than just dismissing these people, calling them crybabies and undemocratic and to get over it, open diologue with them, don't belittle them but have a debate with them, these people are scared, they feel lost and betrayed and like someone has come and closed so many doors they could have gone through as they progressed though life. Progress is not made by standing above others pointing down and laughing but by engaging people on the same level.
Many of those who voted to remain, such as myself, don't love the EU, many actually see very large flaws in the EU, but felt it was the best option to stay in, so they will understand the sovereignty arguments for example. We should want to welcome debate, not just pointing and blaming on both sides
Original post by jneill
There have been issues with the EU/UK relationship since we joined it. But specifically if Cameron and the senior members of the Conservative Party weren't worried about UKIP they wouldn't have included the EUref promise in the Tory manifesto. UKIP = Farage.
And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.
Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.
Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
Because the people have already spoken, if you were a supporter of democracy you would support the vote. The impositions of the petition promote inherently undemocratic reforms which ensure the status quo has a de-facto veto since it would incentivise status-quo supporters to simply abstain to deprive the vote of a necessary 75% turnout.
Hence why 'democrats' aren't posing the 'second vote' the other way which would really be the legitimate way to do it, after all 'most leave supporters' have changed their mind right?
the people have spoken, be an adult and accept a decision you don't agree with.
Original post by AverageExcellence
Because the people have already spoken, if you were a supporter of democracy you would support the vote. The impositions of the petition promote inherently undemocratic reforms which ensure the status quo has a de-facto veto since it would incentivise status-quo supporters to simply abstain to deprive the vote of a necessary 75% turnout.
Hence why 'democrats' aren't posing the 'second vote' the other way which would really be the legitimate way to do it, after all 'most leave supporters' have changed their mind right?
the people have spoken, be an adult and accept a decision you don't agree with.
Hence why 'democrats' aren't posing the 'second vote' the other way which would really be the legitimate way to do it, after all 'most leave supporters' have changed their mind right?
the people have spoken, be an adult and accept a decision you don't agree with.
The petition, as written, is *******s. Yeah.
I bet very few people that signed it actually read it
I think most of the 4 million people who signed it did so simply because they think a tight result, with bad information (on both sides), has lead to a poor bit of decision making that has enormous consequences for the nation.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by jneill
There have been issues with the EU/UK relationship since we joined it. But specifically if Cameron and the senior members of the Conservative Party weren't worried about UKIP they wouldn't have included the EUref promise in the Tory manifesto. UKIP = Farage.
And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.
Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
And you can bet he (Farage) would have put a lot of pressure to call a 2nd Ref if Leave had narrowly lost.
Again, if you believe in democracy why be afraid of giving democracy another referendum? c.f. Ireland.
If you believe in democracy, why not just call endless referenda until you get the result you want?
People will never be perfectly informed and there will never be a public debate that everyone is happy with. Any argument for a second referendum can be equally well applied as an argument for endless re-runs.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
If you believe in democracy, why not just call endless referenda until you get the result you want?
Good idea. It worked in Ireland.
Original post by jneill
You don't care about what two previous Prime Ministers think of referendums? Attlee and Thatcher. One Labour, one Tory. One who was at the heart of the creation of the welfare state post WW2, and one who was Britain's longest serving PM in the 20th Century.
And millenials didn't primarily declare they wanted to remain; most of them didn't bother to vote at all. As I'm not a millennial myself that IS something that annoys me.
And, to be clear, I don't want a (non-binding) referendum overturned. I want it to be reconsidered. That's quite different. And is exactly what democracy is all about.
Edit: not many 18-34s in this photo.
And millenials didn't primarily declare they wanted to remain; most of them didn't bother to vote at all. As I'm not a millennial myself that IS something that annoys me.
And, to be clear, I don't want a (non-binding) referendum overturned. I want it to be reconsidered. That's quite different. And is exactly what democracy is all about.
Edit: not many 18-34s in this photo.
What does it matter what someones opinion on a referendum is? The FACT is a referendum is as democratic as it gets. If you don't like it that you didn't get your own way, time to move to a fascist regime as that's clearly more your style.
The stats show younger people voted to stay, older voted to leave. Either way, the people protesting are ironically those who probably would also see themselves as advocates of democracy
You didn't get your own way, but the majority of people did. There's nothing to consider; democracy has spoken, so deal with it or leave.
Original post by Theplace
The advisory referendum has to go before parliament fir assent, and must thought to benefit the country.
You do realise if Parliament throws out the result of a referendum, it will undermine the entire democratic process and cause far greater problems than what is happening at the moment. Also, how can something that the majority of people want not benefit the country? If there's clearly a right answer, then it should never have been put to a referendum.
Original post by geoking
What does it matter what someones opinion on a referendum is? The FACT is a referendum is as democratic as it gets. If you don't like it that you didn't get your own way, time to move to a fascist regime as that's clearly more your style.
The stats show younger people voted to stay, older voted to leave. Either way, the people protesting are ironically those who probably would also see themselves as advocates of democracy
You didn't get your own way, but the majority of people did. There's nothing to consider; democracy has spoken, so deal with it or leave.
The stats show younger people voted to stay, older voted to leave. Either way, the people protesting are ironically those who probably would also see themselves as advocates of democracy
You didn't get your own way, but the majority of people did. There's nothing to consider; democracy has spoken, so deal with it or leave.
At issue is not whether a referendum is the most democratic option, it's whether the most democratic option is necessarily a workable way of governing a country.
The Athenians found this out to their cost almost as soon as they first devised direct democracy.
There are many stops along the line from direct democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship and the British and other European states have got by quite well with parliamentary democracy for some time now.
Note, not "a fascist regime"; fascism, being populist, has always been democratic and referenda are banned in Germany today because of how Hitler used them to legitimise himself. In 1933 he held a referendum for withdrawal from the League of Nations (sound familiar?), in 1934 he held one for centralising all executive power in himself, in 1936 he held one to garner support for military occupation of the Rhineland, and in 1938 for the Anschluss with Austria.
I certainly agree that referenda should be used when we are discussing major changes to a country's constitution, but the way the Leave campaign has been conducted has meant people casting a vote to assuage a range of random policy gripes that are otherwise unrepresented. A more honest way of holding the referendum would have been to put various leave scenarios on the ballot paper as well as the Remain option; then people would have been forced to consider what they were actually voting for and it would have been discussed how various types of leaving might affect our economy, as well as immigration etc. This could still be done if anyone wants to step forward and demand either a referendum or a general election with each party gunning for a different type of exit.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by PilgrimOfTruth
You mean like the millions who voted Blair into government because of the things he said he would do for education and the NHS but then went and took us into an illegal war with Iraq, killing 1000s on the back of lies about WMDs?
Yeah, did we get a second vote on that one after being duped . . . . . ? Nope!
Yeah, did we get a second vote on that one after being duped . . . . . ? Nope!
Er yes we did, in 2005, where Blair got back in; and then in 2010, where his party was ejected. That's why this has been such a catastrophic decision totally transcending party politics. There is no going back in five years' time now we are out.
Now 4.1 Million...
UKIP hate democracy - trying to force Conservative government to take us out of EU when the Conservative Government has no manifesto pledge to take us out of the EU , either UK wide or in recent scottish election.
There is no Conservative mandate from Conservative voters to take the UK out of the EU.
It would be a CRIME against DEMOCRACY for the Conservatives to take us out of the EU without an election so that Conservative votes can agree to this huge change via the ballot box
UKIP hate democracy - trying to force Conservative government to take us out of EU when the Conservative Government has no manifesto pledge to take us out of the EU , either UK wide or in recent scottish election.
There is no Conservative mandate from Conservative voters to take the UK out of the EU.
It would be a CRIME against DEMOCRACY for the Conservatives to take us out of the EU without an election so that Conservative votes can agree to this huge change via the ballot box
Original post by scrotgrot
At issue is not whether a referendum is the most democratic option, it's whether the most democratic option is necessarily a workable way of governing a country.
The Athenians found this out to their cost almost as soon as they first devised direct democracy.
There are many stops along the line from direct democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship and the British and other European states have got by quite well with parliamentary democracy for some time now.
Note, not "a fascist regime"; fascism, being populist, has always been democratic and referenda are banned in Germany today because of how Hitler used them to legitimise himself. In 1933 he held a referendum for withdrawal from the League of Nations (sound familiar?), in 1934 he held one for centralising all executive power in himself, in 1936 he held one to garner support for military occupation of the Rhineland, and in 1938 for the Anschluss with Austria.
I certainly agree that referenda should be used when we are discussing major changes to a country's constitution, but the way the Leave campaign has been conducted has meant people casting a vote to assuage a range of random policy gripes that are otherwise unrepresented. A more honest way of holding the referendum would have been to put various leave scenarios on the ballot paper as well as the Remain option; then people would have been forced to consider what they were actually voting for and it would have been discussed how various types of leaving might affect our economy, as well as immigration etc. This could still be done if anyone wants to step forward and demand either a referendum or a general election with each party gunning for a different type of exit.
The Athenians found this out to their cost almost as soon as they first devised direct democracy.
There are many stops along the line from direct democracy to a totalitarian dictatorship and the British and other European states have got by quite well with parliamentary democracy for some time now.
Note, not "a fascist regime"; fascism, being populist, has always been democratic and referenda are banned in Germany today because of how Hitler used them to legitimise himself. In 1933 he held a referendum for withdrawal from the League of Nations (sound familiar?), in 1934 he held one for centralising all executive power in himself, in 1936 he held one to garner support for military occupation of the Rhineland, and in 1938 for the Anschluss with Austria.
I certainly agree that referenda should be used when we are discussing major changes to a country's constitution, but the way the Leave campaign has been conducted has meant people casting a vote to assuage a range of random policy gripes that are otherwise unrepresented. A more honest way of holding the referendum would have been to put various leave scenarios on the ballot paper as well as the Remain option; then people would have been forced to consider what they were actually voting for and it would have been discussed how various types of leaving might affect our economy, as well as immigration etc. This could still be done if anyone wants to step forward and demand either a referendum or a general election with each party gunning for a different type of exit.
Athens wasn't a true democracy as only the rich could vote, and that was over 2000 years ago making any examples absurd.
The campaigns for both leave and remain were filled with lies and mistruths - politicians can now earn their wages and figure out the best way for the country to leave. Leaving that part of the vote up to people would be dangerous.
Original post by geoking
Athens wasn't a true democracy as only the rich could vote, and that was over 2000 years ago making any examples absurd.
The campaigns for both leave and remain were filled with lies and mistruths - politicians can now earn their wages and figure out the best way for the country to leave. Leaving that part of the vote up to people would be dangerous.
The campaigns for both leave and remain were filled with lies and mistruths - politicians can now earn their wages and figure out the best way for the country to leave. Leaving that part of the vote up to people would be dangerous.
So a mandate won on lies and mistruths. Excellent...
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by jneill
Are people able to do research about the pros and cons of leaving the EU themselves? Yes.
Also your bias is alarming, and frankly laughable, as your comment could simply be spun the other way around if remain had won
Original post by geoking
Are people able to do research about the pros and cons of leaving the EU themselves? Yes.
Also your bias is alarming, and frankly laughable, as your comment could simply be spun the other way around if remain had won
Also your bias is alarming, and frankly laughable, as your comment could simply be spun the other way around if remain had won
So the campaigns are unnecessary and don't influence people?
You know that's not how advertising works, right?
If the campaign teams didn't think their £millions media spend on leaflets, posters, TV spots, press ads, radio, online media, battle buses, etc etc etc wasn't influential THEY WOULDN'T DO IT.
(edited 7 years ago)
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Participation crisis essay
- Edexcel A-level Politics Paper 1 (9PL0 01) - 23rd May 2023 [Exam Chat]
- Problems with the school system
- Cameron-comeback, opinions?
- AQA A-Level Politics Paper 1 - 7152/1 23 May 2023 [Exam chat]
- GCSE Results Day 2023 National Remark for all students.
- English lang paper 2
- Grant 2023 A Level grading allowances in England similar to Wales/Scotland/NI
- ATAS Reseracher delay
- How to get work experience with an MP?
- EPQ help
- l'histoire d'une de mes folies: a sort of diary thing
- EPQ Help
- 2023–24 by-elections thread
- Can someone please give me feedback on my A-Level Politics essay?
- Can my MP help with Royal Mail issues?
- Official thread - January 2023 IAL edexcel
- Desire for net zero referendum growing among public, poll finds
- Data breach
- ..
Latest
Last reply 25 minutes ago
Bank Of england degree apprenticeship 2024Last reply 30 minutes ago
Feeling inferior compared to syrians as a half moroccan/half whiteLast reply 32 minutes ago
Edexcel A Level Business Paper 1 (9BS0 01) - 14th May 2024 [Exam Chat]Last reply 36 minutes ago
LSE International Social and Public Policy and Economics (LLK1) 2024 ThreadLast reply 38 minutes ago
Official London School of Economics and Political Science 2024 Applicant ThreadLast reply 39 minutes ago
Atkins Degree Apprenticeship 2024Last reply 44 minutes ago
Official UCL Offer Holders Thread for 2024 entryLast reply 49 minutes ago
Official University of St Andrews Applicant Thread for 2024Last reply 59 minutes ago
Learn Direct - Vet science Unit 9 HELPLast reply 1 hour ago
LSE undergraduate accommodationLast reply 1 hour ago
The Official Cambridge Applicants for 2025 Entry ThreadLast reply 1 hour ago
Airbus degree apprenticeships 2024Trending
Last reply 17 hours ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 week ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 1 week ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 2 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?Last reply 3 weeks ago
How did John Major become PM with barely any qualifications?Trending
Last reply 17 hours ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 week ago
Rayner denies wrongdoing over council house sale amid police reviewLast reply 1 week ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
2024 UK general election speculation and build-up threadLast reply 2 weeks ago
Trump needs a $464m bond in six days. What if he can't get it?Last reply 3 weeks ago
How did John Major become PM with barely any qualifications?
