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Scotland can't do referendums any time they want

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Original post by Good bloke
You've forgotten the Darien Scheme, then, which was a purely Scottish mass colonisation attempt in central America, and which precipitated the destruction of Scotland's finances and directly led to the need for the English bail-out.


No, I haven't. Do you have a point to this little reverie?
Original post by Smack
Yes, but are enough Scots sufficiently annoyed at the recent referendum result such that they would vote for independence?


It's too early to say for sure, but I believe that yes, they are sufficiently annoyed. The referendum has had a double impact: firstly taking Scotland as part of the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the majority of Scottish voters and secondly of reminding Scotland how little sway it has in significant decisions affecting its future.
Reply 182
Original post by offhegoes
As soon as independence is mentioned that description of Scotland as "well-off" seems to turn into "impoverished wasteland.

As well as recieving more public spending per person than the UK average, it has also brought in more income per person than the UK average.


Quite so.

Revenue raised in Scotland: £53.4 billion
Expenditure on Scotland: £68.4 billion

Pretty big gap, eh?

The problem is that you're looking at the two in isolation. So while it's true to say there's (by a fraction of a percentage point) higher than average revenue raised in Scotland, there's also vastly higher expenditure, giving us a fiscal gap of around £10 billion with the rest of the UK - and that gap is growing, not shrinking.

Scotland's economy may be OK in a UK context - average is hardly something to slap backs about - but what these figures show is that Scotland benefits from massively higher public sector spending due to fiscal transfers from other parts of the United Kingdom. It's down to nationalists to say what they'd do without that money and how they'd avoid that sort of cut causing an enormously long and deep recession, as well as the major cuts to public services it represents.

And most parts of the UK should consider their involvement in the exploitation of countries and people for the benefit of the British Empire. I'd say Scotland is a little ahead of England in that regard.


Really? I think the rest of the UK does a far better job commemorating slavery, for example. A proposed monument to Glasgow's role in the slave trade (as if Glasgow itself isn't the biggest monument to that you can imagine) seems to have been quietly shelved. Indeed, historians like Tom Devine (a nationalist, incidentally) have suggested quite the opposite: that Scotland is denying its legacy in that regard.
Original post by L i b
Quite so.

Revenue raised in Scotland: £53.4 billion
Expenditure on Scotland: £68.4 billion

Pretty big gap, eh?

The problem is that you're looking at the two in isolation. So while it's true to say there's (by a fraction of a percentage point) higher than average revenue raised in Scotland, there's also vastly higher expenditure, giving us a fiscal gap of around £10 billion with the rest of the UK - and that gap is growing, not shrinking.

Scotland's economy may be OK in a UK context - average is hardly something to slap backs about - but what these figures show is that Scotland benefits from massively higher public sector spending due to fiscal transfers from other parts of the United Kingdom. It's down to nationalists to say what they'd do without that money and how they'd avoid that sort of cut causing an enormously long and deep recession, as well as the major cuts to public services it represents.


Every region in the UK, bar London, spends more than it raises in taxes.

And yes, the wider issue is tha ability of Scotland to decide how it spends money.


Really? I think the rest of the UK does a far better job commemorating slavery, for example. A proposed monument to Glasgow's role in the slave trade (as if Glasgow itself isn't the biggest monument to that you can imagine) seems to have been quietly shelved. Indeed, historians like Tom Devine (a nationalist, incidentally) have suggested quite the opposite: that Scotland is denying its legacy in that regard.


I don't think that the way in which a country relates to its past can be defined purely by whether or not a monument is built. The rhetoric around an independent Scotland is largely about choice, self-determination and working with the rest of the world. The rhetoric in England is largely about Rule Britannia and not being dictated to by Germany again. Lip service is giving to the immigration issue being about equality for commonwealth countries whilst the bulk of Leave voters just want to exclude anyone who doesn't burn after 20 seconds in the late afternoon sun.

Of course on this point we are discussing our own impressions, since I haven't managed to find any research done on attitudes towards the British Empire by region, unless you have?
Reply 184
Original post by offhegoes
Every region in the UK, bar London, spends more than it raises in taxes.

And yes, the wider issue is tha ability of Scotland to decide how it spends money.

So suddenly it's not actually about how much we raise in tax or how much we spend, but about this "wider issue". Hmm.

As for the regional point, I'm not sure you can validate that. GERS figures are published for Scotland on that topic, they're not published for any other part of the United Kingdom - and certainly not at regional level.

The rhetoric around an independent Scotland is largely about choice, self-determination and working with the rest of the world. The rhetoric in England is largely about Rule Britannia and not being dictated to by Germany again.


You see, when you say "self-determination" and "not being dictated to by Germany", it amounts to the precise same thing. The nationalists in England are not fundamentally much different from the nationalists in Scotland and in both cases it's this ridiculous idea about sovereignty that largely appeals to the jingoistic.

In both cases, there was rhetoric about working with other countries around the world. In both cases, I see it as paper-thin: you don't enhance co-operation by loosening co-operation with your nearest neighbour.

For my part, I see choice in a globalised world for me as an individual. I have more choices as part of the UK, as part of the EU and from our governments' relations internationally. You talk about choice in the same sense that English nationalists do: that "Scotland" can choose things. It cannot: only individuals can - states, be they large and small, are simply cobbled-together amalgams of these individuals.
Original post by L i b

In both cases, there was rhetoric about working with other countries around the world. In both cases, I see it as paper-thin: you don't enhance co-operation by loosening co-operation with your nearest neighbour.


There is a huge difference. The SNP always maintain they want MORE immigration not less. That is the big big big difference.

From white paper via BBC:
"

But not in Scotland. Unlike almost every other Nationalist party in Europe, the SNP has set out in its White Paper the ways it would seek to increase immigration should it gain independence in September's referendum.
"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25910947
Original post by L i b
So suddenly it's not actually about how much we raise in tax or how much we spend, but about this "wider issue". Hmm.

As for the regional point, I'm not sure you can validate that. GERS figures are published for Scotland on that topic, they're not published for any other part of the United Kingdom - and certainly not at regional level.


I was looking at the data on spending and tax raised in regions of the UK this afternoon, I'm off out soon but I'll dig it out at some point.

I don't contest that Scotland runs a deficit, as does pretty much every part of the UK bar London unless the data I was looking at is wrong. I do dislike the implication that the "rest of the UK" is propping Scotland up, as if we aren't all collectively screwing over future generations just as has been done to us.

And ultimately for me yes it is about the how.




You see, when you say "self-determination" and "not being dictated to by Germany", it amounts to the precise same thing. The nationalists in England are not fundamentally much different from the nationalists in Scotland and in both cases it's this ridiculous idea about sovereignty that largely appeals to the jingoistic.

In both cases, there was rhetoric about working with other countries around the world. In both cases, I see it as paper-thin: you don't enhance co-operation by loosening co-operation with your nearest neighbour.

For my part, I see choice in a globalised world for me as an individual. I have more choices as part of the UK, as part of the EU and from our governments' relations internationally. You talk about choice in the same sense that English nationalists do: that "Scotland" can choose things. It cannot: only individuals can - states, be they large and small, are simply cobbled-together amalgams of these individuals.


I would prefer a united UK within the EU, but sadly that choice doesn't seem to be there!
Reply 187
Original post by offhegoes
I was looking at the data on spending and tax raised in regions of the UK this afternoon, I'm off out soon but I'll dig it out at some point.

I don't contest that Scotland runs a deficit, as does pretty much every part of the UK bar London unless the data I was looking at is wrong. I do dislike the implication that the "rest of the UK" is propping Scotland up, as if we aren't all collectively screwing over future generations just as has been done to us.


In any case, that would still show the strengths of the United Kingdom anyway.

You say Scotland runs a deficit - but that Scotland's deficit is by a considerable magnitude deeper than the UK's, and the gap is growing. Indeed, if we were to compare Scotland to EU countries, we'd have the biggest deficit of any of them.

I would be very interested to see these regional revenue and expenditure figures.

I would prefer a united UK within the EU, but sadly that choice doesn't seem to be there!


Well, fair enough, but I still think it's baffling to choose the looser union over the weaker one, and the union we interact with more to the one we interact with less.
Reply 188
Original post by FredOrJohn
There is a huge difference. The SNP always maintain they want MORE immigration not less. That is the big big big difference.

From white paper via BBC:
"

But not in Scotland. Unlike almost every other Nationalist party in Europe, the SNP has set out in its White Paper the ways it would seek to increase immigration should it gain independence in September's referendum.


Oh indeed, and I will commend the SNP for that - even if I don't think it's necessary a view shared by their rank and file. Immigration is pretty unpopular too - and it's too their credit that Better Together didn't go on this - you'll see from some of the literature about the campaign that all their polling told them an immigration attack would make a considerable difference to the vote in their favour.

All the same, I do remember during the referendum the SNP denying the scale of immigration it would take to offset our relatively faster-ageing population. They saw headlines with big numbers and instead of taking the high road on that chose instead to misrepresent it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by offhegoes
It's too early to say for sure, but I believe that yes, they are sufficiently annoyed. The referendum has had a double impact: firstly taking Scotland as part of the UK out of the EU against the wishes of the majority of Scottish voters and secondly of reminding Scotland how little sway it has in significant decisions affecting its future.


I think that most rational Scots are aware that as a group of five million people they do not get to overrule a much larger group of sixty million people. It's accepted as part of being in the United Kingdom. Those that don't, want independence.

But I'm still not convinced that the EU is a significant enough issue in the minds of No + Remain voting Scots to switch them to becoming pro-independence. Although many nationalists are chomping at the bit for a second referendum, Nicola has so far been rather reluctant to join them in immediately calling for one. I think that she's aware that around a third of her voters ticked the Leave box, and that she's trying to see what kind of deal an independent Scotland would get from the EU before definitively agreeing to hold another referendum. And if the deal we'd get isn't something that she thinks if particularly appealing to a large enough majority of Scots, I don't think a second referendum will be called, because Nicola isn't a gambler and is thinking longer term.

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