Matthew Parris - &quot;For the first time in my life, I feel ashamed to be British&quot;

Original post by SaucissonSecCy

I thought you were talking about remain when you said that. They are the establishment, and more the 'right class' of people, by demographics, and it seems only one side has been attacked for their motives and 'stupidity'.

Still waiting for an answer I'm afraid. It disgusts me how the leavers silence every criticism of their positions - even if that criticism consists exclusively of debunking objective untruths - by dismissing the critic as a member of the sneering elite metropolitan class.

It is quire astonishing that one person can say, well, look, it's OBJECTIVELY UNTRUE that we send £350m to the EU, and then the other side can say well you're just a sneering elitist so shut up, we will believe what we want to.

It's being called "post-truth politics". And most ironically for the PC identity politics leavers like to rail against, it is entirely based on class and cultural identity, even to the point that objective facts are dismissed if perceived to be coming from the wrong class.

Reply 22

Studentus-anonymous

12

*yawn*

I'm just gonna leave it to this guy to basically say what all the vocal sour Remainers need to hear.

https://youtu.be/THWPJE4xaJM

And aye, it really is time to suck it up, stop being a sore loser, and to get on with it.

Ironic that a generation who have 'Keep Calm & Carry On' branded merch and posters are so prone to narcissistic hysteria.

Chill out, and let's all jump back on the big grown up train shall we? Choo choo to maturity town.

Reply 23

Original post by SaucissonSecCy

It's a bit odd though, how we lived in a utopia devoid of racism one minute, and the next minute race abuse stories are all over mainstream media.

Uh, Stephen Lawrence and many many many more. Nobody is saying we had a racial utopia prior to the Brexit vote.

And much of the "mainstream" media (The Sun, Daily Mail, Express, Sunday Times, Telegraph) was pro-Leave...

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Reply 24

Original post by Studentus-anonymous

*yawn*

I'm just gonna leave it to this guy to basically say what all the vocal sour Remainers need to hear.

https://youtu.be/THWPJE4xaJM

And aye, it really is time to suck it up, stop being a sore loser, and to get on with it.

Ironic that a generation who have 'Keep Calm & Carry On' branded merch and posters are so prone to narcissistic hysteria.

Chill out, and let's all jump back on the big grown up train shall we? Choo choo to maturity town.

The grown up train is well down the line now. We jumped off it about 3 years ago when all of this rigmarole started. And bad news, it's a Southern train: everyone involved is so blinded by hate and hostility that there isn't going to be another coming along for a while.

Reply 25

InnerTemple

20

Original post by Studentus-anonymous

And aye, it really is time to suck it up, stop being a sore loser, and to get on with it.

Chill out, and let's all jump back on the big grown up train shall we? Choo choo to maturity town.

This attitude is really childish and unhelpful. Anyone who wished to remain in the EU has a right to be annoyed at the result.*

They are also entitled to hold Leavers to account. The Leave campaign made some bold statements during the campaign. Many of them were untrue. Whenever this was pointed out, the Remain side were called scaremongers. There was no attempt by Leave to engage with the issues. It was lie after lie and if you disagreed then you were part of some mysterious elite.

Well now the ball is in their court. Of course it doesn't help that some of the chief liars have jumped ship...*

And also - since when in British politics does the loosing side have to shut up? As Ian Hislop said, after an election, the opposition parties don't just quietly disappear. They hold the winning side to account.

Original post by toronto353

I think it is necessary to note that not all of us voted for Brexit on immigration grounds. For me, that argument had no sway whatsoever - my concerns have always been about sovereignty and nation state democracy and I think that for many Brexit supporters, that hold true.

*

I think immigration had a massive role to play.

Aaron Banks, the biggest donor to Leave also thinks so. He did some polling and found that Immigration was the biggest issue on people's minds. And if it wasn't that, it was schools or education - something he describes as 'proxies for immigration'.*

Reply 26

username1969391

14

I don't see the problem with someone voting leave because of immigration. It is arguably the number one issue in British politics right now and a lot of people have genuine concerns regarding mass immigration. Keep misidentifying it as 'racism' all you want.

Reply 27

Golden State

13

He should feel privileged to be British.

Reply 28

Original post by scrotgrot

Your obvious glee at sticking it to him cuts to the heart of what I don’t understand. I don’t doubt for a second that his article was sneering and snobbish. But why on earth would you base a democratic vote, particularly one with such far-reaching consequences as the EU one, on something so petty and emotional?

I didn't base my vote on what a to$$er like Matthew Parris thinks.

I voted Brexit for one simple reason. To regain our sovereignty. But I also do not believe the European Union will survive long term so it will be better to be out when it implodes. We will still suffer, unfortunately, but it won't be quite as bad. :frown:

The European Union under its current vision has failed, it is incapable of addressing all its contradictions, the failures of its byzantine, undemocratic governance structures.

There are only two alternatives. A break up of the overwheening bureaucracy, with the return to a free trade area without all the Commission *******s. We would fit in just fine with that result.

Or a Federal Superstate with a European army and border force to cope with the refugees, and the power to allocate them throughout Europe and not just in camps in Greece and Italy. And to write off Greece's debts. Because there isn't any Greece of Germany. Just Europe.

My money is on disintegration and break up with Italy or Greece the next domino to fall. But we will see.

Reply 29

Original post by scrotgrot

And most ironically for the PC identity politics leavers like to rail against, it is entirely based on class and cultural identity, even to the point that objective facts are dismissed if perceived to be coming from the wrong class.

Ha ha ha! If you can't beat them, join them.

The poor, oppressed white working class despised by soi disant "progressives" for their "racism" have asserted their "identity." :smile:

And you know what is most delicious? It doesn't involve voting Labour. In fact it involves voting AGAINST PC, identity politics Labour.

That must really hurt for the left.

Any ideas how you might win political power back in this generation? Cause it ain't looking good for you guys from where I am standing.

Have you thought that you might take a look at your policies on, hum, what is that subject again? I have it. IMMIGRATION. :biggrin:

Reply 30

Original post by generallee

Ha ha ha! If you can't beat them, join them.

The poor, oppressed white working class despised by soi disant "progressives" for their "racism" have asserted their "identity." :smile:

And you know what is most delicious? It doesn't involve voting Labour. In fact it involves voting AGAINST PC, identity politics Labour.

That must really hurt for the left.

Any ideas how you might win political power back in this generation? Cause it ain't looking good for you guys from where I am standing.

Have you thought that you might take a look at your policies on, hum, what is that subject again? I have it. IMMIGRATION. :biggrin:

Your gloating is vile, however nobly unimpeachable your class origins.

I have always hated identity politics, no matter who is doing it...

Reply 31

Original post by scrotgrot

Your gloating is vile, however nobly unimpeachable your class origins.

I have always hated identity politics, no matter who is doing it...

My class origins aren't "nobly unimpeachable." I am as privileged and middle class as they come.

In fact Brexit has cost me a lot financially as my share portfolio took a hit. Stupidly I hadn't hedged as I didn't think it would actually happen. :frown:

I just stick up for the working class and the poor and left behind in this country politically. I think they have been let down by everyone else. Accused of racism for daring to complain as their neighbourhoods were transformed in front of their eyes in the name of economic benefits they never shared in.

The fact that this betrayal included the Labour Party, the so called political wing of the working class is the saddest thing of all.

Especially sad for Labour itself which has totally lost its soul and raison d'etre.

It would be wonderful if Brexit saw a sea change in attitudes to the white working class. Some serious money being invested in deprived areas. A change in the thinking that assumes they are privileged for being white. When the exact opposite is the case.

It would be marvellous if everyone else started to see their pain for once and hear it. But I can't say I think it is likely however.

They have emitted a primal scream. It was loud enough for the whole world to hear, and it has changed everything.

But no-one cares.

Reply 32

FredOrJohn

5

Original post by generallee

My class origins aren't "nobly unimpeachable." I am as privileged and middle class as they come.

I just stick up for the working class and the poor and left behind in this country politically. I think they have been let down by everyone else. Accused of racism for daring to complain as their neighbourhoods were transformed in front of their eyes in the name of economic benefits they never shared in.

.

The poor of London, Liverpool, Manchester voted REMAIN.. It was elderly Conservatives that mainly voted OUT (this is what Corbyn has pointed out time and time again - his vote held up, it was the TORY vote that fell - OLD RICH PEOPLE DID THE NATION IN..

The people who READ THE DAILY MAIL (its not a coincidence that the DAILY MAIL voted LEAVE - its a mirror of its READERS)

YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED.
The BIGGEST LEAVE VOTE WAS IN GREAT YARMOUTH - Hardly world famous for being poor!!!
And also quite big in Cornwall - also not famous for being poor - but famous for having zillions of elderly retired people.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 33

Original post by FredOrJohn

The poor of London, Liverpool, Manchester voted REMAIN.. It was elderly Conservatives that mainly voted OUT (this is what Corbyn has pointed out time and time again - his vote held up, it was the TORY vote that fell - OLD RICH PEOPLE DID THE NATION IN..

The people who READ THE DAILY MAIL (its not a coincidence that the DAILY MAIL voted LEAVE - its a mirror of its READERS)

YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED.

There's a a theory that internet posters who go in for a lot of capitalisation are basically batshit crazy.

I can't say that it is proven, but your post is evidence in its favour...

Reply 34

Original post by generallee

My class origins aren't "nobly unimpeachable." I am as privileged and middle class as they come.

In fact Brexit has cost me a lot financially as my share portfolio took a hit. Stupidly I hadn't hedged as I didn't think it would actually happen. :frown:

I just stick up for the working class and the poor and left behind in this country politically. I think they have been let down by everyone else. Accused of racism for daring to complain as their neighbourhoods were transformed in front of their eyes in the name of economic benefits they never shared in.

The fact that this betrayal included the Labour Party, the so called political wing of the working class is the saddest thing of all.

Especially sad for Labour itself which has totally lost its soul and raison d'etre.

It would be wonderful if Brexit saw a sea change in attitudes to the white working class. Some serious money being invested in deprived areas. A change in the thinking that assumes they are privileged for being white. When the exact opposite is the case.

It would be marvellous if everyone else started to see their pain for once and hear it. But I can't say I think it is likely however.

They have emitted a primal scream. It was loud enough for the whole world to hear, and it has changed everything.

But no-one cares.

I agree entirely, but it is likely that leaving will lead to even worse underinvestment. It has been an act of self-harm, and it'll be no surprise to me that nobody in government listens.

Of course I understand why alienation leads to an emotional, irrational voting pattern. But I don’t see why we have to pander to it. I will continue to call out irrational and wantonly destructive decisions no matter which section of society does it. No kid gloves just because they are working class.

Reply 35

Original post by FredOrJohn

The poor of London, Liverpool, Manchester voted REMAIN.. It was elderly Conservatives that mainly voted OUT (this is what Corbyn has pointed out time and time again - his vote held up, it was the TORY vote that fell - OLD RICH PEOPLE DID THE NATION IN..

The people who READ THE DAILY MAIL (its not a coincidence that the DAILY MAIL voted LEAVE - its a mirror of its READERS)

YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED.
The BIGGEST LEAVE VOTE WAS IN GREAT YARMOUTH - Hardly world famous for being poor!!!
And also quite big in Cornwall - also not famous for being poor - but famous for having zillions of elderly retired people.

I know we are supposed to be on the same (Remain) "side". But sometimes you do write a load of old tosh...

Cornwall is one of England's major recipient's of EU funding for a reason.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2016/02/real-cornwall-county-poorer-lithuania-and-hungary

Great Yarmouth
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/greenpolitics/planning/10223431/Britains-seaside-towns-Welcome-to-Poverty-on-Sea.html

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(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 36

FredOrJohn

5

Original post by jneill

I know we are supposed to be on the same (Remain) "side". But sometimes you do write a load of old tosh...

Cornwall is one of England's major recipient's of EU funding for a reason.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2016/02/real-cornwall-county-poorer-lithuania-and-hungary

Great Yarmouth
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/greenpolitics/planning/10223431/Britains-seaside-towns-Welcome-to-Poverty-on-Sea.html

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As you know there are many Cornwalls. There is Padstow to St Ives - loaded.

We've all been there on holiday, we know, that the place is both LOADED and poor.

So to say its a load of old tosh is plain wrong.
I've lived in both ferguslie park and wester hailes . Cornwall and Great Yarmouth dont know what poor is mate.... You know what? Ferguslie park area voted 64% to REMAIN.... So its not poverty... You just don't like my craap english

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 37

Original post by FredOrJohn

As you know there are many Cornwalls. There is Padstow to St Ives - loaded.

We've all been there on holiday, we know, that the place is both LOADED and poor.

So to say its a load of old tosh is plain wrong.
I've lived in both ferguslie park and wester hailes . Cornwall and Great Yarmouth dont know what poor is mate.

Yes both. You just portrayed them as rich. But I bet in terms of voters the poor outnumber the rich in Cornwall and Great Yarmouth...

The vote was lost because C2DEs mostly voted Leave.

And the young mostly didn't bother to vote at all.

Edit: E.g. 14.5% of Padstow residents are "income-deprived", that's higher than average for the South West (12.2%)

And 18.7% of older people receive Pension Credit Guarantee, again higher than average.

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(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 38

FredOrJohn

5

Original post by jneill

Yes both. You just portrayed them as rich. But I bet in terms of voters the poor outnumber the rich in Cornwall and Great Yarmouth...

The vote was lost because C2DEs mostly voted Leave.

And the young mostly didn't bother to vote at all.

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It was the old in Cornwall. I'm sorry but I think you are wrong.
Yes there are pockets of estates that are St George flag waivers but they are a minority. Most poor people think very similar to rich people -we all have worries and fears. The nation is split but its not rich v poor, its much more so old v young. Anyone who has gone to Europe in the past THREE years (rich or poor) is far more likely to vote REMAIN then someone (often old) who does not travel...

If you want to help people, help the old travel more - go and offer to take an old person on a day trip.

Reply 39