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If multiculturalism has failed, it's because of the white British majority.
It struck me the other the day that the failure of multiculturalism - which, I see as the acceptance of different cultures, not just tolerating them - was/has been thoroughly rejected by the indigenous white majority from the very beginning. When I hear white Britons talk about their ideal view of multiculturalism, it often isn't multiculturalism, in fact, its assimilation. The reason I say this is for two reasons:
1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.
Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.
Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
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no, it's because human beings are "tribal", and that's for either whites or non-whites (or "brits" and "muslims", etc).
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by sleepysnooze
no, it's because human beings are "tribal", and that's for either whites or non-whites (or "brits" and "muslims", etc).
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
I disagree. I personally, live and have always lived in a very multicultural area and DO NOT want to live with people of the same ethnicity. Ask the majority of people from London the same question and their answer will probably be exactly the same as mine. As for why Muslims live predominantly in one or two areas in a city, it's because of socioeconomic reasons. The majority of immigrants won't have much money or education, and are therefore limited in where they can stay, so they opt for the cheapest areas that just so happen to be Muslim-majority neighbourhoods. If you have ever lived in one of these neighbourhoods, you'll realise that working class white people live in these neighbourhoods too, because it's all they can afford. The fact that it's Muslim-majority for them is a bonus, rather than a pre-requisite.
Human tribalism is a valid argument, but we don't have much else to measure it against. Ancient Rome was a melting pot of different ethnicities, so was ancient Egypt. To dismiss multiculturalism on the basis that tribalism is natural is defeatist, imo.
Original post by Akamega
I disagree. I personally, live and have always lived in a very multicultural area and DO NOT want to live with people of the same ethnicity.
I said "99%~" of people
Ask the majority of people from London the same question and their answer will probably be exactly the same as mine. As for why Muslims live predominantly in one or two areas in a city, it's because of socioeconomic reasons. The majority of immigrants won't have much money or education, and are therefore limited in where they can stay, so they opt for the cheapest areas that just so happen to be Muslim-majority neighbourhoods.
do you honestly think that muslim existence is roughly evenly distributed vis-a-vis impoverished areas of the country? then why aren't there any "muslim areas" in the south-west? there are none of them. why are they so predominantly in places like london when london is the most expensive city to live in? it doesn't make much sense for muslims to go *there* unless they feel better being around other muslims, whom *are* there...
If you have ever lived in one of these neighbourhoods, you'll realise that working class white people live in these neighbourhoods too, because it's all they can afford. The fact that it's Muslim-majority for them is a bonus, rather than a pre-requisite.
again, I've been around a lot of poor areas in my time (in the south particularly) and there is no factor of muslim-population increasing as poverty increases. there are only muslim areas, not "poor areas where muslims will go".
Human tribalism is a valid argument, but we don't have much else to measure it against. Ancient Rome was a melting pot of different ethnicities, so was ancient Egypt. To dismiss multiculturalism on the basis that tribalism is natural is defeatist, imo.
they were melting pots not for social reasons but for economic/trade reasons though. in the UK, that's still the case - immigrants come here for the £, not the "wealth of british culture" which they mostly don't identify with particularly strongly.
Multiculturalism is inherently a terrible idea. Vastly different social and cultural ideas can hardly exist harmoniously within the same legal system and culture.
Multiculturalism is not an ideal to be strived for. Quite the opposite, immigrants should be required to drop any aspect of their culture which is incompatible with British values when they come here.
Multiculturalism is not an ideal to be strived for. Quite the opposite, immigrants should be required to drop any aspect of their culture which is incompatible with British values when they come here.
Original post by Akamega
It struck me the other the day that the failure of multiculturalism - which, I see as the acceptance of different cultures, not just tolerating them - was/has been thoroughly rejected by the indigenous white majority from the very beginning. When I hear white Britons talk about their ideal view of multiculturalism, it often isn't multiculturalism, in fact, its assimilation. The reason I say this is for two reasons:
1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.
Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
1) The white indigenous majority often cite migrants not learning English and accepting traditionally British values as their main reason for disliking multiculturalism. But they expect migrants to come here and immediately take steps to learn English and expect them to speak English in public. Many white indigenous British people that I've spoken to lack any empathy when it comes to migrants. They don't consider that perhaps, expecting them to work and at the same time pick up English without their being enough support (Germany has training centres for immigrants where they teach them German), is akin to dropping someone in the middle of the English channel and expecting them to swim to shore. In reality, they'll just float; they'll find communities where they can exist peacefully and not make any progress.
2) Indigenous white British people also assume that multiculturalism is a one-way street. They want migrants to learn English but the vast majority of indigenous British people are monoglots. There is the assumption that they must learn everything from us, but us nothing from them. To put it simply we reek of arrogance. That does not mean we must accept arcane practices from their regions (I concede, many of cultures have values I'd never accept), but perhaps we should try to embrace the bits of their culture that are enriching. Learn about their history, culture and their lives before Britain, especially if they come from Commonwealth countries (that essentially propped our economy up for centuries). In my view, there is this undeniable attitude in the UK that we give these people more than they give us, but in reality, our NHS and in fact, our workforce would collapse without them.
Title is provocative, but from my experiences it's genuinely the truth. What do you guys think?
1. Immigrants have opportunities to learn English for free. Contact your local college.
2. Its good that we learn from other cultures.
Ultimately the country is the UK and its immigrants coming here and not use going to their country. If you dont wnat to learn the langauage when you intend to make it your home thats a bit strange, even more so when people make no attempt to learn it after 5 or 10 years.
The NHS mention was a weird one considering the preious 90% of your post.
So 1/10 becayse it hasnt failed because of the English and not in the way you opretend.
You argue that native Britons should accept and learn about the cultural values of those who come here, but why? Has it ever occurred to you that perhaps the natives don't want to? You say that it is unfair that immigrants are required to learn the language and work at the same time, but why wouldn't this be a requirement? If you want to live in a society then you have to learn to accept the values of that society, not manipulate it to be more like your own. If you aren't prepared to learn the language and work at the same time, then simply don't come here. The native population shouldn't be forced to spend their taxes on building language/learning centres for immigrants, it they wish to join our society then they should make the effort to learn it themselves without everything being provided on a silver platter. And that's the same for Britons - if I were to emigrate to Germany, or France, then I think it's perfectly reasonable that I should take the time to learn their respective language and a bit about their culture before going there.
Yes, you could argue that multiculturalism has failed due to resistance from the native population, but that 'failure' isn't necessarily a bad thing.
Yes, you could argue that multiculturalism has failed due to resistance from the native population, but that 'failure' isn't necessarily a bad thing.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by sleepysnooze
no, it's because human beings are "tribal", and that's for either whites or non-whites (or "brits" and "muslims", etc).
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
muslims all deliberately live in closed very islamic areas, and whites, when this happens, feel isolated by this kind of de facto segregation, and move
it's not to say that a white (briton) will actively dislike a non-white or muslim (etc), it is simply the effect of human groups in one geography. if you ask anybody "would you rather live with your own kind or be one amongst others, which would you prefer?" - 99% of people would side with being with those that are similar to themselves. it's less uncertain, less complex, more familiar, etc. human tribalism is why we have nation-states, national borders, no organised distribution of wealth world-wide, and so on - human beings like to feel part of a larger social existence, and that isn't possible with these visions of multiculturalism.
whether you're the majority or minority, you will, in reality, prefer cultural belonging, not cultural diversity.
He didn't mention muslims at all in his post so where on earth did you obtain this example from?
Original post by The_JoKeR
He didn't mention muslims at all in his post so where on earth did you obtain this example from?
he didn't mention non-white people either, yet I also referred to that group as well. what are you implying?
Original post by sleepysnooze
he didn't mention non-white people either, yet I also referred to that group as well. what are you implying?
You referred to a much more specific group here so I did not feel the need to point that out as well.
I think that most indigenous people of a country would want other cultures to at least attempt to assimilate into their own if said cultures are openly misogynistic and homophobic.
I'd contribute to this discussion, but the people who run this website, who I find are excessively discriminative against non liberal ideals sharers, are on to me, deleting any post I make because they don't agree with it. Bottom line is they are leftist extremists and they are extremely oppressive.
Original post by The_JoKeR
You referred to a much more specific group here so I did not feel the need to point that out as well.
why are you acting as if there's no reason for me specifically selecting muslims? :| what's with this front of yours?
I'm going to go to Saudi Arabia with a bottle of wine and when they whip me for flashing it about I'm going to come back to this thread and complain how multiculturalism is a failure because of the Saudi majority for not integrating with my ideals, rather than me integrating with theirs.
Original post by Jee1
England is just over 90% white British of course not many are going to come across ethnic minorities
Are you looking at the 1991 census? If so you are 25 years late. England is 76/77% white British.
Erm, we never got a say if we wanted it or not...
Original post by SirMilkSheikh
I'm going to go to Saudi Arabia with a bottle of wine and when they whip me for flashing it about I'm going to come back to this thread and complain how multiculturalism is a failure because of the Saudi majority for not integrating with my ideals, rather than me integrating with theirs.
Original post by Jee1
England is just over 90% white British of course not many are going to come across ethnic minorities
The last census was 88% for the UK but the point remains.
Multiculturalism for a lot of places is just the town having a curry house or a Chinese.
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