German who works with refugees describes his experience
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4v08c7/germanys_chancellor_merkel_firmly_rejects_calls/d5uhvom?st=ir6vh2rg&sh=8dd01f32
[–]NineSwords 3299 points 7 hours ago*x6
Due to my occupation I think I have a lot more contact to refugees as the normal commentor here. So let me chime in to your statements.
From the 600+ refugees I've talked with were not a single one unthankful for my help. I have been at no point been afraid that something would happen to me.
As you might have expected there's a "but". The male group of those 600+ were almost entirely sexist in one way or another. By either not talking to my boss because she's a woman, or by complaining directly or indirectly about the stuff female staff or non-refugee students were wearing. There have been minor incidents that have been "dealt with" by the higher ups in order to not bring in the police. Our personal has been politely asked to wear more moderate clothing or hide their piercings. There have been several complaints by female staff and students about verbal abuse. 2 hours ago a coworker had a constant stream of students asking her stupid questions. When they left her office they were making quite some disrespectful gestures. She was wearing a summer dress with some cleavage. What I find interesting is that it's the same persons that shout some insults on some days and make some lecherous comments the next.
There is also a insane agression and potential for violence between the different regugees themself. Just last week there have been serious fight between 2 students because one of them decided to pronounce his name in in class in the way we were pronouncing it. Another student attacked him after class because this name is pronounced different in arab. Seriously, I couldn't quite follow the reasoning they gave to the police, but there was a lot of talk about being proud heritage, etc..
There are a lot of offers from volunteers to help integration (i.e. free courses to learn to play Guitar in a mixed group, and stuff like that) that go unused because there does't seem to be much interest in them. From my personal experience there is absolutely no interest from refugees to reach out to anything that involves integrating with non-refugees. There are groups and sub groups that completely isolate themselves.
So, from my personal experience with this group of refugees, I'm not afraid of someone blowing them self up, but from their reluctance to integrate into our society and accept personal freedom of females. Those people come from places where they have a completely incompatible culture ingrained into them from their first breath and I don't see them change this culture anytime soon. What will change is our culture to commemorate theirs. There are already some orders in place to change ourself in order to commemorate accomodate the refugees. Small things like "wear something less revealing" or "put out your piercings at work". At no point has there been someone saying to the refugees "Well, this is how it is here and you have to deal with it. Maybe try wearing something like this yourself you might actually like it". There is also some change in the populace visible. For example people going to the public pool are now changing into their swim suits at the pool and not at home (which used to be commonplace) so they don't have to walk from the parking space to the pool in their swim suits out of fear to be assaulted (both verbally or physically). Going from personal sphere of friends, a lot of them avoid the public pools altogether and rather flock to the lakes here.
[–]NineSwords 3299 points 7 hours ago*x6
Due to my occupation I think I have a lot more contact to refugees as the normal commentor here. So let me chime in to your statements.
From the 600+ refugees I've talked with were not a single one unthankful for my help. I have been at no point been afraid that something would happen to me.
As you might have expected there's a "but". The male group of those 600+ were almost entirely sexist in one way or another. By either not talking to my boss because she's a woman, or by complaining directly or indirectly about the stuff female staff or non-refugee students were wearing. There have been minor incidents that have been "dealt with" by the higher ups in order to not bring in the police. Our personal has been politely asked to wear more moderate clothing or hide their piercings. There have been several complaints by female staff and students about verbal abuse. 2 hours ago a coworker had a constant stream of students asking her stupid questions. When they left her office they were making quite some disrespectful gestures. She was wearing a summer dress with some cleavage. What I find interesting is that it's the same persons that shout some insults on some days and make some lecherous comments the next.
There is also a insane agression and potential for violence between the different regugees themself. Just last week there have been serious fight between 2 students because one of them decided to pronounce his name in in class in the way we were pronouncing it. Another student attacked him after class because this name is pronounced different in arab. Seriously, I couldn't quite follow the reasoning they gave to the police, but there was a lot of talk about being proud heritage, etc..
There are a lot of offers from volunteers to help integration (i.e. free courses to learn to play Guitar in a mixed group, and stuff like that) that go unused because there does't seem to be much interest in them. From my personal experience there is absolutely no interest from refugees to reach out to anything that involves integrating with non-refugees. There are groups and sub groups that completely isolate themselves.
So, from my personal experience with this group of refugees, I'm not afraid of someone blowing them self up, but from their reluctance to integrate into our society and accept personal freedom of females. Those people come from places where they have a completely incompatible culture ingrained into them from their first breath and I don't see them change this culture anytime soon. What will change is our culture to commemorate theirs. There are already some orders in place to change ourself in order to commemorate accomodate the refugees. Small things like "wear something less revealing" or "put out your piercings at work". At no point has there been someone saying to the refugees "Well, this is how it is here and you have to deal with it. Maybe try wearing something like this yourself you might actually like it". There is also some change in the populace visible. For example people going to the public pool are now changing into their swim suits at the pool and not at home (which used to be commonplace) so they don't have to walk from the parking space to the pool in their swim suits out of fear to be assaulted (both verbally or physically). Going from personal sphere of friends, a lot of them avoid the public pools altogether and rather flock to the lakes here.
(edited 7 years ago)
Scroll to see replies
Original post by HanSoloLuck
Funnily enough, this is a story about the 'moderates'. These people that are unable to integrate and promote intolerance make up the majority of Muslims.
In fact, I have yet to meet or see or hear of a Muslim that has integrated, every single one is denying any responsibility for the problems their religion creates and is refusing to change it, those that aren't are simply calling for the government to be toppled and for an Islamic orientated legal system to replace it. At least the latter Muslims are honest, I can't think of any redeeming factors about the former, social parasites the lot of them. They want to benefits of a first world society without any of the compromises;
Definition of a parasite;
1. an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.
No doubt this post will be scrubbed out, even though nothing in it is false or a misrepresentation of the facts/situation.
In fact, I have yet to meet or see or hear of a Muslim that has integrated, every single one is denying any responsibility for the problems their religion creates and is refusing to change it, those that aren't are simply calling for the government to be toppled and for an Islamic orientated legal system to replace it. At least the latter Muslims are honest, I can't think of any redeeming factors about the former, social parasites the lot of them. They want to benefits of a first world society without any of the compromises;
Definition of a parasite;
1. an organism which lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.
No doubt this post will be scrubbed out, even though nothing in it is false or a misrepresentation of the facts/situation.
I wouldn't say so. Around 20% probably don't integrate but most of the Muslims at my school very much live a Western lifestyle. Has this been the case with the Muslims you've met? They don't have to change their religion really... they are free to believe in what they want and the majority don't really care for the violent bits of the Quran. They don't need to take responsibility for their religions faults either...
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Trapz99
I wouldn't say so. Around 20% probably don't integrate but most of the Muslims at my school very much live a Western lifestyle. Has this been the case with the Muslims you've met? They don't have to change their religion really... they are free to believe in what they want and the majority don't really care for the violent bits of the Quran. They don't need to take responsibility for their religions faults either...
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
Freedom of religion isn't free, it comes with price in the form of social responsibility. They have a responsibility to others to ensure that their beliefs do not infringe everyone else's freedoms and rights, that we are under 24 hour 365 day terror alert is testament to their collective failure as a group to integrate, every single one of them.
Original post by HanSoloLuck
Freedom of religion isn't free, it comes with price in the form of social responsibility. They have a responsibility to others to ensure that their beliefs do not infringe everyone else's freedoms and rights, that we are under 24 hour 365 day terror alert is testament to their collective failure as a group to integrate, every single one of them.
No. Why should a random Muslim be responsible for the acts of other Muslims? I certainly am not responsible for the actions of any Christian beside myself and I am not responsible for ensuring that everyone else's freedoms are protected. A group might not integrate, but I know many Muslims that do integrate.
I think you're approaching far-right territory here. Personally, I just don't agree. I dislike their religion and there is a serious terror problem within Islam- but I'd never blame all Muslims (or any race or people of a certain religion) for anything.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Trapz99
I wouldn't say so. Around 20% probably don't integrate but most of the Muslims at my school very much live a Western lifestyle. Has this been the case with the Muslims you've met? They don't have to change their religion really... they are free to believe in what they want and the majority don't really care for the violent bits of the Quran. They don't need to take responsibility for their religions faults either...
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
I live in Oldham so admittedly one of the worst areas I could talk about but I'd say 80%+ of the Muslims at my school refuse to integrate, it's fine until about year 10 when everyone seems to separate out into ethnicities. The ones I know well enough to know details of their home life have generally been forced to attend long hours of Islamic colleges outside of school, and have parents that speak little to no English. In my area the Bangladeshi and Muslim community is so large that there is simply no need to integrate. There are "no go" zones for non Asians, and entire high streets that cater solely to Asian customers. So there's absolutely no need to learn English and I know a lot don't bother.
I think it's a real shame because their kids tend to be nice enough people, their parents just kind of learn to live their same lives just in a different country. It's a bit odd to think about, truth be told.
I am however aware that places like Oldham are the extreme and not representative of the rest of the country.
Demonising assimilation is a pretty big problem imho..
Original post by Trapz99
No. Why should a random Muslim be responsible for the acts of other Muslims? I certainly am not responsible for the actions of any Christian beside myself and I am not responsible for ensuring that everyone else's freedoms are protected. A group might not ingrate, but I know many Muslims that do integrate.
I think you're approaching far-right territory here. Personally, I just don't agree. I dislike their religion and there is a serious terror problem within Islam- but I'd never blame all Muslims (or any race or people of a certain religion) for anything.
I think you're approaching far-right territory here. Personally, I just don't agree. I dislike their religion and there is a serious terror problem within Islam- but I'd never blame all Muslims (or any race or people of a certain religion) for anything.
If your religion calls for the persecution of other religions, and the people from your religious group are acting on this belief, then you bear some responsibility.
It is on Muslim communities to change their belief, reform it, so that the rest of us can live in peace. That some don't care for the violent parts or have a selective interpretation of it doesn't change that the onus is on them to address the issue that precipitates the problem, the issue being their religion.
Again I will say it, freedom of religion isn't free.
What I don't understand is why are we trying to integrate them? They're here to pass the time through which their countries are going through military issues, which will be resolved in a few years and then they can go back and continue their lives in their home countries.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
Original post by 1010marina
I live in Oldham so admittedly one of the worst areas I could talk about but I'd say 80%+ of the Muslims at my school refuse to integrate, it's fine until about year 10 when everyone seems to separate out into ethnicities. The ones I know well enough to know details of their home life have generally been forced to attend long hours of Islamic colleges outside of school, and have parents that speak little to no English. In my area the Bangladeshi and Muslim community is so large that there is simply no need to integrate. There are "no go" zones for non Asians, and entire high streets that cater solely to Asian customers. So there's absolutely no need to learn English and I know a lot don't bother.
I think it's a real shame because their kids tend to be nice enough people, their parents just kind of learn to live their same lives just in a different country. It's a bit odd to think about, truth be told.
I am however aware that places like Oldham are the extreme and not representative of the rest of the country.
Demonising assimilation is a pretty big problem imho..
I think it's a real shame because their kids tend to be nice enough people, their parents just kind of learn to live their same lives just in a different country. It's a bit odd to think about, truth be told.
I am however aware that places like Oldham are the extreme and not representative of the rest of the country.
Demonising assimilation is a pretty big problem imho..
I see. I've never been to Oldham. I live in outer London, in a mainly white middle class area with a sizeable Asian and Muslim population and the Muslim guys at my school integrate really well and their parents get involved in PTA meetings and everything. They're basically British first, Muslim second. It probably depends on the demographics of an area. I have heard that some parts of East London do have Muslim majorities where it's hard for non-Muslims to make friends and live with their Muslim neighbours.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by HanSoloLuck
If your religion calls for the persecution of other religions, and the people from your religious group are acting on this belief, then you bear some responsibility.
It is on Muslim communities to change their belief, reform it, so that the rest of us can live in peace. That some don't care for the violent parts or have a selective interpretation of it doesn't change that the onus is on them to address the issue that precipitates the problem, the issue being their religion.
Again I will say it, freedom of religion isn't free.
It is on Muslim communities to change their belief, reform it, so that the rest of us can live in peace. That some don't care for the violent parts or have a selective interpretation of it doesn't change that the onus is on them to address the issue that precipitates the problem, the issue being their religion.
Again I will say it, freedom of religion isn't free.
I'll agree to disagree on this.
Original post by oShahpo
What I don't understand is why are we trying to integrate them? They're here to pass the time through which their countries are going through military issues, which will be resolved in a few years and then they can go back and continue their lives in their home countries.
Dude, you can't be this naive ?
You think that their countries will become stable AND that they will just go home when this happens AND it's going to happen in a few years...
Original post by HanSoloLuck
Dude, you can't be this naive ?
You think that their countries will become stable AND that they will just go home when this happens AND it's going to happen in a few years...
You think that their countries will become stable AND that they will just go home when this happens AND it's going to happen in a few years...
I don't think the countries will become stable, but I think the war will stop in a few years. Isis is losing by the minute, in both Syria and Iraq. So it isn't too naive to believe that eventually ISIS will be defeated and some leader or group will rule Syria or Iraq.
Original post by oShahpo
What I don't understand is why are we trying to integrate them? They're here to pass the time through which their countries are going through military issues, which will be resolved in a few years and then they can go back and continue their lives in their home countries.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
Do you really think the refugees are going to go back? Why would they? Refugees rarely ever leave. Even after the Syrian war ends, the clean up process will take a generation- by that time, refugees will have settled here and will have made Britain their new home. The children for sure will have spent most of their childhood in Britain by the time the clean up process finishes and will probably become British citizens. When we take in refugees, we need to recognise that they will settle here permanently and therefore it's best for them to integrate. We can't force anyone to integrate but it's the best option.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by oShahpo
I don't think the countries will become stable, but I think the war will stop in a few years. Isis is losing by the minute, in both Syria and Iraq. So it isn't too naive to believe that eventually ISIS will be defeated and some leader or group will rule Syria or Iraq.
I seriously doubt that they'll want to go back after realizing the European countries they're in are far better off than most if not all Muslim countries they come from...
Original post by Trapz99
I wouldn't say so. Around 20% probably don't integrate but most of the Muslims at my school very much live a Western lifestyle. Has this been the case with the Muslims you've met? They don't have to change their religion really... they are free to believe in what they want and the majority don't really care for the violent bits of the Quran. They don't need to take responsibility for their religions faults either...
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
I am not a fan of the religion myself and I think we should probably temporarily ban immigration from Muslim countries to be on the safe side but there's a fine line between hating Islam and hating Muslims and you've crossed it in my opinion.
Actually, the religion islam is actually peaceful. It's the Wahabbi doctrine culture ( which muslims aren't doing to stop and is practiced by many muslims as they love the culture more than pure islam itself . Such as arranged marriage, etc ( various degrees some practice forced relationships, others honor killings, etc )
Islam in it's purest from is a great religion.
Original post by Trapz99
I see. I've never been to Oldham. I live in outer London, in a mainly white middle class area with a sizeable Asian and Muslim population and the Muslim guys at my school integrate really well and their parents get involved in PTA meetings and everything. They're basically British first, Muslim second. It probably depends on the demographics of an area. I have heard that some parts of East London do have Muslim majorities where it's hard for non-Muslims to make friends and live with their Muslim neighbours.
Yeah it's pretty much like that up here. Housing estates are either one or the other with a few mixed in the centre. After the riots they tried to mix up the schools (which, according to the media, was a roaring success), but there's still schools that are 90%+ Muslim. As kids everyone is very accepting and then you kind of drift your separate ways when stuff like sex and marriage comes up in conversation.
On the surface its calm but there's a lot of tension etc.
Still, the best integration story I've ever heard was from my geography teacher's mum (can't for the life of me remember where they live though - I think the other side of Manchester?). A local mosque and a church have a partnership where every week they run a cooking club, one week the members from the church teach traditional English dishes and the next week the ladies from the mosque show off their cooking and they swap recipes and such. THAT'S the kind of thing I'd love to see more of!
Original post by HanSoloLuck
Funnily enough, this is a story about the 'moderates'. These people that are unable to integrate and promote intolerance make up the majority of Muslims.
I used to live near Lewisham
It was funny as each and every "integrated" Muslim I knew was hardly Muslim in the first place, one outright left the religion because her family tried to force arrange a marriage for her with a cousin back in Bangladesh. Yet this is the religion UAF are defending against "oppression" from the rightwing, the same religion that is openly oppressing women and gays all across the country, destroying families.
Islam is incompatible with the west, if that makes me an Islamaphobe for that comment then so be it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by elmosandy
Actually, the religion islam is actually peaceful. It's the Wahabbi doctrine culture ( which muslims aren't doing to stop and is practiced by many muslims as they love the culture more than pure islam itself . Such as arranged marriage, etc ( various degrees some practice forced relationships, others honor killings, etc )
Islam in it's purest from is a great religion.
Islam in it's purest from is a great religion.
Even the supposedly good parts of the Qu'ran tell its followers to do good deeds only for God, rendering all acts as completely lacking any altruism or compassion. There is nothing good about the religion.
Original post by oShahpo
What I don't understand is why are we trying to integrate them? They're here to pass the time through which their countries are going through military issues, which will be resolved in a few years and then they can go back and continue their lives in their home countries.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
They don't have to integrate, all they have to do is obey the law. If they don't, they're to be deported. We don't have the responsibility of fixing the world and making it more moderate and liberal. If they are sexist, so be it, as long as they obey the law and are grateful for the help we're giving them, that should be it.
Don't you understand? They're here to stay.
Original post by elmosandy
Islam in it's purest from is a great religion.
Islam in it's purest from is a great religion.
Spoiler
Quick Reply
Related discussions
- Questions on "The Ultimate Safari" by Nadine Gordimer
- Un sac de billes chapter by chapter
- Modern languages at A-Level / uni
- Working Class / Left wing football clubs?
- gcse drama devising log
- Best accommodations at Exeter university
- "The best thing about the course is the placements." - Emily, Public Health
- RE… good for med?
- UK or Australia?
- Psychology A level 16 marker advice?
- Oxford Migration Studies
- Psychology Question AQA
- How do I decide my A-levels?
- Languages at Swansea?
- Is there anyone on here with social anxiety who’s tried volunteering
- I am applying for Uni and degree apprenticeships in Software engineering/Digital & te
- reuben's y13/medapps journey!!
- Is this good enough for a teacher training course?
- gap year
- Asylum seeker dies on bibby Stockholm barge
Latest
Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 day ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 1 day ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?Trending
Last reply 1 day ago
Why is the political left now censorious and authoritarian??Last reply 1 day ago
Is it true that British unis are prejudiced towards degrees from Scottish unis?Last reply 1 day ago
If the Russell Group was now a fair representation of what it still claims to beLast reply 2 weeks ago
TSR Goes Green: How important will the environment be in this year's election?Last reply 2 weeks ago
Research Rankings of universities if you add Research Quality & Intensity percentagesLast reply 1 month ago
Is University of Birmingham prestigious and respected well enough in UK ?
