Ehhh... I'm kinda with the anti-Trump brigade on this one

Sure, the anti-Trump brigade totally took his words about Mexican cartel members coming over the border out of context and made it look like he was talking about all Mexican immigrants. They've twisted a lot of stuff he's said, they've misconstrued stuff. His comments that Russia would find a lot of great stuff if they hacked Hillary's email were clearly sarcastic, and said with large degree of tongue-in-cheek. But I think his comments about the Muslim mother and father of the American soldier who died were pretty terrible. It was a really cold hearted response, and it was very stupid and undiplomatic. If you want to know what I'm talking about, see here: [video="youtube;GW1uHqPkG8c"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GW1uHqPkG8c[/video]

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Reply 1

math42

As much as I dislike Hillary, I can't like Trump either. Several of his policies are thoroughly disagreeable to me and his position on climate change is particularly concerning. He is relatively anti-establishment, but he is still a billionaire from a rich family who I highly doubt has the interests of the average person at heart. And yes, as this clip shows, he is undiplomatic. He would not look good on the world stage. The notion of banning Muslims from entry to the US is not moral or constitutional.

Reply 2

KingBradly

Original post by 1 8 13 20 42

I like the fact he supports allowing states to decide whether marijuana should be legal in them, and believes in "studying" legalisation. I like his opposition to TPP and TTIP. I think it's actually a really good idea to make it more difficult for people to pass over the border from Mexico, as it would really make life difficult for the cartels and would actually greatly benefit all the Mexicans who live under their menace in the towns near the border. I don't think Mexico should be forced to pay for it. I like the fact he is fairly indifferent about gay marriage, and now seems to have accepted it. I like the fact he support Planned Parenthood. I like the fact his response to the whole transgender toilet debacle was something along the lines of "people should be able to use whichever toilet they want". I also like the fact he is very concerned about Islamic terrorism and Islam. I love the fact he has said he would refuse to take money from the Saudis.

On the other hand, his views on guns are ridiculous, and he does say some stupid, brash, belligerent things, and I wonder if his utter lack of diplomacy could be dangerous.

Reply 3

username878267

Original post by 1 8 13 20 42

The greatest thing Trump has done is convincing so many people he is even slightly 'anti-establishment'. A corporate billionaire who has thrived from our economic system hardly strikes you as anti-establishment.

Reply 4

KingBradly

Original post by Bornblue

He's anti-political establishment.

Reply 5

username878267

Original post by KingBradly

He's anti-political establishment.

No, he isn't. Not by a long stretch. He's massively benefited from the political and economic system.

The idea that he's 'anti-establishment' when he's a corporate billionaire is utterly laughable.

Reply 6

math42

Original post by Bornblue

Well, I would say it is more that he is anti a certain part of the establishment. In particular the "liberal" intelligentsia with their identity politics, political correctness and virtue signalling. Much of the mainstream media in particular.

Reply 7

username878267

Original post by 1 8 13 20 42

'The establishment' is far more than just 'liberal pc culture', it's the economic system which underpins our entire way of life. The 'establishment' is the cut throat, rugged individualism, neoliberal economic system and Trump could not be more part of that if he tried.

Other than making it a bit easier to be racist and bigoted in public, what about Trump is actually anti-establishment? Will that put food on the table?

Bernie Sanders has been a politician for decades, but he's far more anti-establishment than Trump.

Reply 8

KingBradly

Original post by Bornblue

No, he isn't. Not by a long stretch. He's massively benefited from the political and economic system.

The idea that he's 'anti-establishment' when he's a corporate billionaire is utterly laughable.

The fact he has benefitted from the political and "economic" system (who doesn't benefit from the latter btw?) does not mean he isn't anti-establishment. Pablo Escobar was a billionaire who benefitted from, and was deeply involved in, both of those things, and he still was definitely anti-establishment. The political establishment, even the Republicans, have tried everything to stop Trump and shed a bad light on him. The news is far more full of stories that shed a negative light on Trump than on Hillary or anyone else. The fact Hillary has broken the law, and sanctioned selling weapons to Saudi Arabia to bomb Yemen, or giving weapons to Syrian rebels who turned out to be ISIS, has received far less attention on mainstream news sites such as the BBC than any of Trump's gaffs or controversies.

Reply 9

Chakede

im sure this has been said before , but the worlds great superpower and the best they can come up with as a president is either a loon or a crook. how did we come to this situation?

Reply 10

username878267

Original post by KingBradly

Who doesn't benefit from rugged individualism, cut throat capitalism? How about the 40 million Americans who cannot afford healthcare, or the 5 million Americans who are homeless, or the 1 million people here who need a foodbank etc etc.

Trump is a huge neoliberal, capitalist. He supports the establishment, he's part and parcel of the establishment. He supports the system he claims to oppose.

He doesn't want to challenge our economic system which underpins everything else. That's hardly 'anti-establishment'.

Not being a politician does not make you anti-establishment. You'd hardly say Corbyn was 'establishment'.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 11

Chakede

Original post by KingBradly

how about the fact in early obama administration she also helped pakistans funding of taliban training camps and which her husband helped set up 20 years eariler

Reply 12

math42

Original post by Bornblue

I have already said I don't like Trump. When I say he is relatively anti-establishment, I mean compared to Hillary. Bernie Sanders would indeed be my preference were I American (well, he is anyway, not that it matters any more).

The point for many people is that Trump forces some honesty into the political debate. He is talking about issues that other people try to avoid because they think it is not politically safe or viable. He does not simply parrot the agendas of the media. Whether said agendas are correct or not is not the issue. It is the fact that Trump is offering some kind of alternative. I am for the most part, I believe, economically left wing; I am very much in support of regulating big business, high taxes on the wealthy, publicly funded services, high government investment, etc. So the neoliberal agenda is not one that particularly thrills me and I certainly wouldn't want to vote for Trump if I were American. But I can see why so many sympathise with Trump; he will say what nobody else is saying, and the relentless claiming of the moral high ground, the intellectual smugness, the hypocrisy, the authoritarianism that is growing in the modern left concerns many people.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 13

KingBradly

Original post by Bornblue

I think anyone who has ever made a dime in America can be said to have benefitted from "the economic system". Whether it would benefit them more if it was more heavily controlled is another question, and not what you said.

The fact that Trump may be a capitalist has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of libertarians out there who are very anti-establishment who could be said to be far more capitalistic than him. The important thing you said here is that he does not want to challenge the economic system, but the reality is that he absolutely does want to challenge the economic system. Every single speech I've seen him make he has spent a lot of time and energy protesting against the TPP and TTIP, two highly neo-liberal and capitalistic ideas endorsed by the most powerful elements of "the establishment", which exist to serve "the establishment".

Reply 14

KingBradly

Original post by Chakede

how about the fact in early obama administration she also helped pakistans funding of taliban training camps and which her husband helped set up 20 years eariler

Yup, she's an absolute war-hawk. She's like something outta Metal Gear Solid.

Reply 15

username878267

Original post by 1 8 13 20 42

He's a corporate billionaire who's benefited from employing illegal immigrants and moving his firms offshore to take advantage of cheap labor. He's every bit as 'establishment' as Clinton.

The point for many people is that Trump forces some honesty into the political debate. He is talking about issues that other people try to avoid because they think it is not politically safe or viable. He does not simply parrot the agendas of the media. Whether said agendas are correct or not is not the issue. It is the fact that Trump is offering some kind of alternative.

Proposing to ban all Muslims and making Mexico pay for a wall are hardly 'honest alternatives'. What alternative is he offering, seriously?

I am for the most part, I believe, economically left wing; I am very much in support of regulating big business, high taxes on the wealthy, publicly funded services, high government investment, etc. So the neoliberal agenda is not one that particularly thrills me and I certainly wouldn't want to vote for Trump if I were American. But I can see why so many sympathise with Trump; he will say what nobody else is saying, and the relentless claiming of the moral high ground, the intellectual smugness, the hypocrisy, the authoritarianism that is growing in the modern left concerns many people.

What has he said that no one else will? He's just as smug as anyone else.

Reply 16

Atlas Thugged

Original post by KingBradly

Yup, she's an absolute war-hawk. She's like something outta Metal Gear Solid.

This is the real issue. Trump's bigotry is goofy and clownish, Hillary has literally lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Muslims.

Reply 17

Themini

I may be ignorant here. But doesn't trump want to make torture legal and also make it legal for families of terror suspects to be killed?

Reply 18

username878267

Original post by KingBradly

The fact that Trump may be a capitalist has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of libertarians out there who are very anti-establishment who could be said to be far more capitalistic than him. The important thing you said here is that he does not want to challenge the economic system, but the reality is that he absolutely does want to challenge the economic system. Every single speech I've seen him make he has spent a lot of time and energy protesting against the TPP and TTIP, two highly neo-liberal and capitalistic ideas endorsed by the most powerful elements of "the establishment", which exist to serve "the establishment".

Does he want to provide healthcare to the millions of Americans who cannot afford it?
Does he want to increase taxes on the ultra wealthy and clamp down on corporate tax avoidance?

He's a neoliberal capitalist, that's establishment. Libertarians are hardly anti-establishment either given they wholeheartedly support our neoliberal economic system.