Muslim and starting to doubt my religion

Original post by Khizer.M

Nope and see that's where morality comes into play - i personally wouldn't feel comfortable owning a slave 1400 years ago it was fine just like 400 years ago owning a black slave was too.

Lol....well, if it is immoral to take a slave then you are saying that the rules in the Qu'ran are immoral.

Anyway, you don't feel comfortable taking slaves. How about ISIS taking slaves? That is ok then?

Reply 163

Original post by mercuryman

I fail to see how it is a child marriage to begin with. When is an individual considered a child? The definition of a child is: 'a young human being below the age of puberty' Did I not just specify that marriage in islam has to occur after both parties have reached puberty?

Puberty is a process that takes several years, and the person is still a child until puberty is completed (or well established, at the very least).

Does someone become a doctor when they enrol at medical college, or when they graduate?

It really depends on whether she has reached puberty, ( I don't know any 9 year olds that have gone through puberty so it would be an instant no if she hadn't )

if she has reached puberty at 9,
who has somehow gone through puberty

You need to make your mind up.

Reply 164

Original post by QE2

But a child of 6, or even 10, cannot give informed consent. So therefore you agree that any marriage at that age is unacceptable, by any standards.

Erm no I do not, multiple factors need to be considered. If all factors aren't ticked off then marriage cannot happen. It's really that simple. Go reread what I said to DorianGrayism in reply #132

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 165

Original post by QE2

Puberty is a process that takes several years, and the person is still a child until puberty is completed (or well established, at the very least).

Does someone become a doctor when they enrol at medical college, or when they graduate?

You need to make your mind up.

You're cherry picking my statements to fit your argument, yet you fail to see that massive reply I sent in #132 which vehemently expresses that parental consent, competence and puberty needs to be considered.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 166

Original post by mercuryman

Dad and Mum***

NO. Have you not been reading what I've been typing to you for the past 20 mins?
.

No, the assumption is that they have reached puberty obviously.

So if Dad and Mum think a 9 year old can give * informed * consent then the child can be married off.

Instead of writing waffle, you should just address the subject.

With regards to the child marriage issue. Yes. getting married at 16 is child marriage. Even ignoring that issue, it is quite clearly different from a 9 year old.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 167

Original post by mercuryman

Ok then by your definition 'child marriages' are allowed in the UK and US too (if parental consent is given) Do you see how stupid that makes your argument now?

You seem to be confusing the "legal responsibility" (marriage) and "biological" (sexual intercourse) arguments. The legal age is indeed rather arbitrary, and varies with culture. However, the majority still consider 16 as a reasonable biological age, with a few countries as low as 14 (forget marriage, just consider having sex). No one considers 9 to be acceptable apart from those under the influence of Islamic ideology.

Reply 168

Original post by QE2

You seem to be confusing the "legal responsibility" (marriage) and "biological" (sexual intercourse) arguments. The legal age is indeed rather arbitrary, and varies with culture. However, the majority still consider 16 as a reasonable biological age, with a few countries as low as 14 (forget marriage, just consider having sex). No one considers 9 to be acceptable apart from those under the influence of Islamic ideology.

Surprisingly enough the age at which menstruation begins for females is around 12-14. If I recall correctly, New hampshire's laws for marriage with parental consent is 13.

I am in no way advocating 9 year olds to get married and have sex if that's what you're trying to imply because 9 year olds cannot reach puberty at 9. They're way too underdeveloped for sex and critical thinking at that age. Islam has made it clear marriage can happen only after both parties have reached puberty.

Reply 169

tahsin87

I think you need to speak to a scholar or an Imam on the doubts you are having, so they can answer the questions you have. What are parents teach is fine to a point but I have found that by actually seeking out the answers and by asking scholars the doubts I had were answered, no one can provide a succinct answer in the way they can.

Reply 170

Chakede

15

Original post by mercuryman

Surprisingly enough the age at which menstruation begins for females is around 12-14. If I recall correctly, New hampshire's laws for marriage with parental consent is 13.

I am in no way advocating 9 year olds to get married and have sex if that's what you're trying to imply because 9 year olds cannot reach puberty at 9. They're way too underdeveloped for sex and critical thinking at that age. Islam has made it clear marriage can happen only after both parties have reached puberty.

puberty can occur from age of 9 depending on specific person. some parts of africa girls are shown to have reached puberty 9-10. moahmmed is said to have married a 9 year old im told, so i assume he was following that principle. as regards this, the slavery question, wife beating etc -the wider question that can be asked here is whether mohammedian arabic principles of the 8th century are suitable example to follow in the rest of the world in 2016

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 171

Original post by Zamestaneh

Respectfully, even if God introduced a new religion in 2020, QE2000 would still come out with "does this make more sense as... or as the work of 21st century men?".

If someone tomorrow claimed to have the latest revealed word of god, I would certainly apply the same test.

Why would I not? It would still be just as valid.

There is nothing that could ever convince you of a deity,

I would assess the claim critically and objectively. If there were no possible natural explanations, then I would have to consider it.
However, if it stated that certain people should be discriminated against, oppressed or killed because of their sexuality or religious belief, I would refuse to follow them, despite being convinced of their existence.

White supremacy is real. It exists. But that doesn't mean that I have to follow it.
I fail to see why the mere existence of a god necessarily means that you must agree with them and follow them. It makes no sense.

instead you would keep arguing with God (if He showed Hinself to you) demanding to know who created Him, only thinking of Him as an advanced lifeform that you don't understand fully,

Very possibly (and what would be wrong with that?)

Whereas you would stagger forward, glassy-eyed with arms outstreched muttering "must.obey...must. obey..."

Reply 172

Original post by DorianGrayism

No, the assumption is that they have reached puberty obviously.

So if Dad and Mum think a 9 year old can give * informed * consent then the child can be married off.

No because the child needs to have a say and be THOROUGHLY, in the most unbiased way advised on the topic. It's clear that if they don't have a clue on marriage they're unfit to marry.

Most children in the west are different and are very innocent at young age, having a sister who is also 9, I can assure you that she is very ignorant of life, and is certainly not going to get married any time soon that's for sure.

It may be different in the middle east in terms of intellect and competence, I don't know. All I can tell you is that islam doesn't allow parents to force their agendas on children for marriages. And to parents that do coerce their young ignorant yet innocent children to marry, well shame on them.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 173

Marco1

15

The more I read and learn about Islam the more I am disgusted by it. It's built on very bad bricks and generates so much suffering and cruelty, particularly against women. It is ethically and culturally at odds with Western ethical values, posing a real threat. I recommend reading Aayan Hirsi Ali. I'm reading her book Nomad at the moment. She is such a fine ambassador for Muslim women. Such a star, yet sadly she has to be protected by an armed guard, so she isn't killed by vengeant Muslims for telling the truth. When one gets curious about Islam and researches it by various different means, it becomes more and more clear that it's a nasty violent political ideology with a religious component. The two combine to form a heady mix that confounds minds. If one can get away from it, they are most fortunate.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 174

Original post by Khizer.M

It's sad that you and so many others believe isis are muslims just because they kill in the name of allah. I wouldn't spit on them - frankly they're backwards, barbaric and have nothing to do with islam...

I would consider them Muslims if they follow the 5 pillars of Islam.
Do you have any evidence that they do not?

Furthermore, it would appear that most of what they do can be justified by reference to particular passages of the Quran or sunnah.

The sex slaves is a classic example. Even yourself have claimed that it is allowed for Muslims involved in conflict. Yet when Muslims actually put their god given right into practice, you call takfir. Seems a little hypocritical, don't you think?

Wouldn't it be better to just say "taking slaves and using them for sex can never be justified. It is wrong now, and it always has been"?

Oh yes, I forgot. You can't say that because both Allah and Muhammad have said it's ok. And you can't say that they were wrong, because that would be an act of kufr.

It's that old "rock and a hard place" again!

Reply 175

Original post by mercuryman

But you're forgetting how contradictory some of these hadiths are with her age. It just doesn't add up. I think scholars really need to sit down and re examine these 'Sahih' hadiths.

IIRC, there is one that says seven instead of six, and possibly one that says "six or seven".
There are none that mention any other ages, so how you get from "there is some uncertainty over whether she was 6 or 7" to "she was in her late teens" is an absolute mystery.

Aisha is unlikely to have known her age, and her intention was to emphasise that she was young at the time of her marriage, as is clear from the context of her speech. In mathematically-naive societies, numbers were often not used in a precise numerical sense, but as adjectives. The most primitive numbers, one and two, still take the grammatical form of adjectives in Arabic to this day.

So on the one hand, Allah chose Aisha because of her remarkable memory and sharp mind, but on the other hand, she didn't know how old she was by a factor of 2 or more.

On the one hand, you claim that the use of numbers at the time was so vague as to be almost meaningless, but on the other hand, your counter argument relies on a variety of records of ages, times and dates all being exact and precise.

I sense a certain amount of desperation in these "arguments".

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 176

Khizer.M

6

Original post by Chakede

ok. but your morals agree with most on here, and therefore disagree with quran, that slavery is inherently unacceptable

Like i said, the quran was revealed 1400 years ago where slavery was fine - i'm not saying i disagree with the quran nor am i saying it is "outdated" it will never be. The quran mentions slavery as being PERMISSABLE so it is upto you to decide whether to take a slave or not. Just like in some countries the death penalty is an optional punishment for criminals but it's upto the judge to decide whether it is the best option - based on the facts and all that

Reply 177

Anonymous #4

Original post by QE2

So you claim that Castro's Cuba is as bad as Hitler's Germany, and both deserve equal criticism?

Er...OK.

The majority of muslims are respectful and it is shown by the way they use they language on most of the threads.

So er Ok back.

Reply 178

Original post by mercuryman

No because the child needs to have a say and be THOROUGHLY, in the most unbiased way advised on the topic. It's clear that if they don't have a clue on marriage they're unfit to marry.

Most children in the west are different and are very innocent at young age, having a sister who is also 9, I can assure you that she is very ignorant of life, and is certainly not going to get married any time soon that's for sure.

It may be different in the middle east in terms of intellect and competence, I don't know. All I can tell you is that islam doesn't allow parents to force their agendas on children for marriages. And to parents that do coerce their young ignorant yet innocent children to marry, well shame on them.

Sorry but who even makes that decision?

If the parents decide that they have been given unbiased advice then who is going to question them.

There is a reason why the consent laws put in place. It is clear that Islamic laws by themselves are not enough to stop parents from marrying off their children.

Reply 179