Muslim and starting to doubt my religion

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Lol....well, if it is immoral to take a slave then you are saying that the rules in the Qu'ran are immoral.

Anyway, you don't feel comfortable taking slaves. How about ISIS taking slaves? That is ok then?

I'm not okay with slavery, or isis taking slaves, i wouldn't say they're muslims but Allahu alam (allah knows best).
Maybe back 1400 years ago it was fine but to me - now in this day and age no not for me... Let me reiterate again it's written in the Quran as PERMISSABLE for the purpose of differentiating whether it's haram or halal, whether you act on it is on you...

Reply 181

QE2

Original post by Khizer.M

Nope, everyone's morals are different - when i said morality i meant what is considered right/just/moral in my eyes.

Your morals might be different to mine - One man might think it minor to cheat on his wife whereas another wouldn't dare...

But the whole point of divine objective morality is that it is fixed and universal.
Allah permits the use of captives for sex. Therefore it is a morally acceptable practice. Your, or my opinion on the issue is irrelevant. If we thing that it is morally objectionable, we are wrong.
This is the thing that is problematical. We both know that using captives for sex is morally repugnant, but your belief in Islam and the infallibility of Allah means that you are in a quandry. If you condemn using captives for sex, you are explicitly saying that Allah was wrong, and that you consider your own, innate, human sense of morality to be superior to Allah's - and this makes a mockery of the entire concept of Islam, the perfect Quran, Muhammad the final messenger, all of it.

If you are a Muslim, the only morality you can have is that which Allah has revealed. If you think it is wrong you have only two alternatives - accept Allah's morality or reject Islam.

Reply 182

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

Erm no I do not, multiple factors need to be considered. If all factors aren't ticked off then marriage cannot happen. It's really that simple. Go reread what I said to DorianGrayism in reply #132

If the person getting married cannot consent to the marriage, how can it be acceptable?

Your argument merely states that the consent of a 6 year old is assumend to be valid. The reality is that it cannot be, and no rational person would claim that it could be.

What you describe in #132 is essentailly a forced marriage (marriage without consent).

Reply 183

mercuryman

Original post by QE2

No it doesn't state that because 6 year olds never go through puberty that early.
6 year olds are not competent with decision making.
A 6 year old doesn't even know how to spell marriage let alone engage in one.

A father asks their daugher about marriage at the right time and age, the daughter declines. Consent not given.

How is that marriage without consent? I don't quite understand.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 184

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

You're cherry picking my statements to fit your argument, yet you fail to see that massive reply I sent in #132 which vehemently expresses that parental consent, competence and puberty needs to be considered.

So, to sum up #132...
Girl has first period (could be 8 or even younger).
Parents agree to and approve of marriage.
Parents explain to child what is going to happen.
Child does not refuse.

You consider this to be a valid, consensual and acceptable situation?
If you have children, Social Services should know about this.

Reply 185

DorianGrayism

Original post by Khizer.M

So, in other words, Muslims are allowed to take slaves.

I am not saying you are going to take one.

Can you not see the problem in this?

Reply 186

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

Surprisingly enough the age at which menstruation begins for females is around 12-14.

Wrong. In the UK, the average age is 11, with as young as 8 not unusual.

http://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/puberty/Pages/puberty-signs.aspx

If I recall correctly, New hampshire's laws for marriage with parental consent is 13.

It is (but only in special cases and with permission from a court), and it is too young. Every other state is 16/18.

I am in no way advocating 9 year olds to get married and have sex if that's what you're trying to imply because 9 year olds cannot reach puberty at 9.

Wrong. They can. As that NHS site states, reaching puberty at 8 is "not unusual".

They're way too underdeveloped for sex and critical thinking at that age.

Exactly. Yet Islam claims that if they have reached puberty they are an adult and may marry and have sex.
Also, in your much-referred-to post #132, you claimed that the child could give consent at that age, as long as they had reached puberty, which is not unusual at 8 years old.
So, by your own argument, an 8 year old con consent to marriage, but they are also "way too underdeveloped for critical thinking".

I think you may need to reconsider your argument.

Islam has made it clear marriage can happen only after both parties have reached puberty.

And we have established that Islam approves of marriage with girls as young as 8. Also, I notice that there is no upper limit on the age of the husband. Ewww!

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 187

mercuryman

Original post by QE2

That's basically a form of coercion. Again not acceptable in islam. If the child doesn't refuse then it's still a No. A normal, law abiding and civilised parent would obviously see that their child in incapable of living by themselves if they see the child cannot respond adequately to the situation and dismiss marriage in an instant.

You're assuming that every muslim parent(s) wants their daughter to get married off at 6 years old, when i HIGHLY DOUBT that is the case, especially in the UK.
But it's good that laws are placed on this. It avoids parents imposing such radical actions on the lives of their children.
At the end of the day the Quran isn't a book about marriage. It's outlined it's core message which is the notion of God just like many other religious scriptures. If people force marriage on their children then I feel no remorse for them when they get their children snatched away from them by the authorities.

Original post by QE2

If you have children, Social Services should know about this.

Excellent. Now you've moved onto defaming me for reps and satire when you know full well from my previous posts to you that I vehemently disagree with coerced and non-consensual marriage with children.

EDIT:
Note to reader: QE2 obviously manipulates the points you make and throws them against you to prove you wrong. I've made it clear that islam doesn't allow marriages to take place just because a guy and a girl have reached puberty.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 188

QE2

Original post by tahsin87

I think you need to speak to a scholar or an Imam on the doubts you are having, so they can answer the questions you have. What are parents teach is fine to a point but I have found that by actually seeking out the answers and by asking scholars the doubts I had were answered, no one can provide a succinct answer in the way they can.

And if you want to know if Tory policies are good for the country, ask a Tory politician.

They are obviously going to give you an objective and unbiased answer.

Reply 189

QE2

Original post by Anonymous

The majority of muslims are respectful and it is shown by the way they use they language on most of the threads.

So er Ok back.

So no response to the point?
How unusual.

Reply 190

QE2

Original post by Khizer.M

Like i said, the quran was revealed 1400 years ago where slavery was fine - i'm not saying i disagree with the quran nor am i saying it is "outdated" it will never be. The quran mentions slavery as being PERMISSABLE so it is upto you to decide whether to take a slave or not. Just like in some countries the death penalty is an optional punishment for criminals but it's upto the judge to decide whether it is the best option - based on the facts and all that

You are fundamentally contradicting yourself here.

If you consider the Quran to be perfect and timeless, then by definition, you consider using slaves for sex as perfect and timeless.

If you consider that using slaves for sex is unacceptable today, then you do not consider the Quran to be perfect and timeless.

Reply 191

markova21

Original post by Anonymous

Different places have different ages for marriage.

In Islam we don't have a set age. Rather we go by puberty and when the parents think their offspring is mature enough for marriage. Ofcourse this is generally speaking and this statement doesn't cover any rare situations.

"We go by puberty." I am female and I started growing pubic hair when I was 10. So you think 10 is old enough to get married? One of my friends around the same age started developing breasts too and started her periods a year later. Should she have been married off?

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 192

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

No it doesn't state that because 6 year olds never go through puberty that early.
6 year olds are not competent with decision making.
A 6 year old doesn't even know how to spell marriage let alone engage in one.

A father asks their daugher about marriage at the right time, the daughter declines. Consent not given.

How is that marriage without consent? I don't quite understand.

I used 6 years old because that is when authoritative Islamic texts say that Aisha was married to Muhammad.

Let's use 8 instead, because it is known that girls reaching puberty at 8 is not uncommon (according to the NHS). Remember that in the Islamic context, it is on reaching puberty, not completing puberty that adulthood is gained and marriage becomes permissible.

A father explains to an 8 year old daughter that they want her to marry this man (very possibly someone she knows and trusts). The girl does not refuse. Consent given.
Do you really believe that such a marriage is consensual and acceptable?

Reply 193

mercuryman

Original post by QE2

The girl does not refuse. Consent given.
Do you really believe that such a marriage is consensual and acceptable?

No, because to not give a response is not the same as 'I give consent'.

That's basically a 'I don't feel It's right engaging in something I have no knowledge of' AKA I'm clueless AKA I don't give my consent.

Do you think all the people that didn't vote in the EU referendum gave consent to vote leave? No.
A girl gives no response to having sex because she feared she'd get hurt by the guy even more. Did she consent to having sex? No.

A typical case in pakistan 30 years back:
a girl didn't give a reply to marriage proposal because she didn't want to disgrace her dad. Did she give consent? No. Was the marriage wrong islamically? Yes.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 194

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

That's basically a form of coercion.

But you described that situation as an acceptable marriage.

Again not acceptable in islam. If the child doesn't refuse then it's still a No.

How so?

A normal, law abiding and civilised parent would obviously see that their child in incapable of living by themselves if they see the child cannot respond adequately to the situation and dismiss marriage in an instant.

You are talking about the behaviour of individuals. The issue here is what Islam permits.

You're assuming that every muslim parent(s) wants their daughter to get married off at 6 years old, when i HIGHLY DOUBT that is the case, especially in the UK.

A very poorly constructed strawman. I have never suggested this. My position is entirely what Islam permits. Nothing more.

At the end of the day the Quran isn't a book about marriage.

Yet it contains several passages that give explicit instructions on marriage.
And don't forget the whole issue of Muhammad being the perfect moral and practical example for all humanity. If Muhammad did something or allowed something, it cannot be haram (unless the Quran specifies that it is reserved uniquely for Muhammad - like having 11 wives when everyone else is limited to 4).

If people force marriage on their children then I feel no remorse for them when they get their children snatched away from them by the authorities.

Either you think that girls marrying at 8 is ever acceptable or not. If you think it isn't then you disagree with the Quran and sunnah.
If you think it is, then you are condoning child abuse.
It's one or the other.

Now you are just equivocating.
Marriage to an 8 year old girl can never be consensual.
Your post #132 states that it can be consensual.

Reply 195

Khizer.M

Original post by DorianGrayism

So, in other words, Muslims are allowed to take slaves.

I am not saying you are going to take one.

Can you not see the problem in this?

Yea i see exactly what you mean and you've got a valid argument. It's written as permissable - what an individual does thereafter is under the scrutiny of the law - Slavery has been abolished so those who take slaves in any case and whether it's permissable in islam or not, they will be dealt with the according punishment. That's what i mean by "slavery was fine 1400 years ago" because back then it was legal also.

Reply 196

mercuryman

Original post by QE2

Now you are just equivocating.
Marriage to an 8 year old girl can never be consensual.

Of course it can't because 8 year olds cannot give valid consent at their age.

Original post by QE2

Your post #132 states that it can be consensual.

But It can never be consensual because an 8 year old child will always be seen as ignorant and incompetent when it comes to life impacting decisions. The parent should know that full well. If they don't then that's not Islam's problem.

That post was merely just a simple way of dismissing forced marriages in general.

Uneducated muslims fail to see simple human ethics and are unable to understand this when they forcefully marry off their children in the eastern parts of the world. I guarantee if more muslims where educated about their religion in the middle east, you'd be seeing a sharp reduction in the cases of forced marriage. The problem stems from regressive cultural attitudes being dissolved into religion.

A Muslim from the west certainly does have a different view on islamic beliefs than a muslim from the middle east. You cannot deny that.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 197

a.shah786

I would say you need to research what things you have listed about islam before jumping into conclusions. Firstly, everything you find on the internet is not always the truth, many people like to take an extreame point of view on things when that is totally not what islam portrays. There are many extreamist islamic groups who believe that women are lower than men etc. However this is not the case, as when a muslim woman marries a man she completes half of his deen. Also when a muslim girl is born in a household, she becomes the reason for her father to enter paradise. When she becomes a mother paradise lies beneath her feet. This is the status of women in islam. I hope you finally realise that islam does not teach inequality between men and women. i pray that you never feel like this again towards islam & inshallah allah guides you to the right path.

Reply 198

Khizer.M

Original post by QE2

So smoking legalized weed is permissable but do i believe it's acceptable? No - because it's simply my choice not to smoke weed regardless of it being acceptable or not.
Do you see what i mean?
Because something is acceptable doesn't mean i will condone it.

The same way it is written as acceptable/permissable for slaves to be taken for war doesn't mean i will take them.
And no offece but who are you to sit there and tell me what Allah's (swt) morals are??

Reply 199

QE2

Original post by mercuryman

EDIT:
Note to reader: QE2 obviously manipulates the points you make and throws them against you to prove you wrong.

Correct. That is how debate works!
You make a point, and I take that point and use it to demonstrate why you are wrong.

I've made it clear that islam doesn't allow marriages to take place just because a guy and a girl have reached puberty.

No you haven't. Islam clearly allows marrige to a girl who has reached puberty.
I am not claiming that it is compulsory, or that it always happens. Only that it is permitted.
https://islamqa.info/en/12708