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Original post by QE2
Correct. That is how debate works!
You make a point, and I take that point and use it to demonstrate why you are wrong...without acknowledging the context and placement of that point made in that argument, right?


:rolleyes:

Good day.
First of all, your spirituality (or lack of) is something that you can only truly explore on your own. Nobody can tell you what to eventually believe or not believe, because regardless, your mind, heart and gut will follow whatever it wants too. Be open-minded and look for the TRUTH. There is absolutely no point even acknowledging the intellectual cowards who tell you to go back to religion, and pray more. That isn't going to satisfy your questions. Don't be afraid to be critical and decisive. At the end of the day, you have one life (that is absolutely guaranteed) and you don't want to squander that on believing something that isn't satisfying morally or intellectually. At the same time, gut and heart are important, maybe as important as your logical reasoning, let that guide you to your truth/or whatever you find fulfilling. I am an ex-Muslim, who was incredibly devout, but I realised that I should be loyal to finding the truth, not finding the truth in Islam at all costs. I came to the conclusion, based on my own moral compass, that Islam was immoral by todays standards, that the Islamic depiction of God wasn't something I was comfortable believing in, nor did I think the attributes ascribed to that God were befitting of an all-wise, all-powerful creator. As you can tell, I still believe in a God, but I acknowledge that we probably will never have any empirical evidence to verify the existence of a creator or not, so I'm agnostic.
Reply 202
Original post by mercuryman
No, because to not give a response is not the same as 'I give consent'.

That's basically a 'I don't feel It's right engaging in something I have no knowledge of' AKA I'm clueless AKA I don't give my consent.

Do you think all the people that didn't vote in the EU referendum gave consent to vote leave? No.
A girl gives no response to having sex because she feared she'd get hurt by the guy even more. Did she consent to having sex? No.

A typical case in pakistan 30 years back:
a girl didn't give a reply to marriage proposal because she didn't want to disgrace her dad. Did she give consent? No. Was the marriage wrong islamically? Yes.
You seem to be confusing the arguments here.
I am claiming that a lack of explicit refusal is not consent, and explicit consent by a 8 year old is not valid.
Your post #132 claims that it is.
Original post by QE2
But the whole point of divine objective morality is that it is fixed and universal.
Allah permits the use of captives for sex. Therefore it is a morally acceptable practice. Your, or my opinion on the issue is irrelevant. If we thing that it is morally objectionable, we are wrong.
This is the thing that is problematical. We both know that using captives for sex is morally repugnant, but your belief in Islam and the infallibility of Allah means that you are in a quandry. If you condemn using captives for sex, you are explicitly saying that Allah was wrong, and that you consider your own, innate, human sense of morality to be superior to Allah's - and this makes a mockery of the entire concept of Islam, the perfect Quran, Muhammad the final messenger, all of it.

If you are a Muslim, the only morality you can have is that which Allah has revealed. If you think it is wrong you have only two alternatives - accept Allah's morality or reject Islam.


This is why the creator gave us free will. Make your own choices your own opinions otherwise he would've made us as angels with the same "morals" if i can say that as him (swt).
You're telling me i have to accept that slavery today is acceptable or otherwise leave islam because i "don't agree" with Allah's "morals" is absurd. I am simply stating that i would not take a slave purely because that's my choice and i don't think it's right. It's the right that Allah has given me - to make my own choice - i'm not refuting Allah and saying that he is wrong and i'm right.. no. It is something that Allah has permitted - whether i choose to act on it or not is between me and the Almighty not you or anyone else.

To conclude if you're trying to make me lose faith it won't work, my actions and opinions and morals and "political views" are nothing in comparison to Allah (swt).
I will be judged in accordance to my actions and my character.

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@QE2
You're definitely a great debater i'll give you that - even tho we've all gone off track a little :wink:

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Reply 205
Original post by Khizer.M
So smoking legalized weed is permissable but do i believe it's acceptable? No - because it's simply my choice not to smoke weed regardless of it being acceptable or not.
Do you see what i mean?
Because something is acceptable doesn't mean i will condone it.

The same way it is written as acceptable/permissable for slaves to be taken for war doesn't mean i will take them.
And no offece but who are you to sit there and tell me what Allah's (swt) morals are??
So you think that Allah was wrong to allow taking slaves and to allow using them for sex.

If you think that Allah is wrong about something because you personally consider it to be wrong, you are rejecting Allah's morality in favour of your own.

I agree with you on this, but I don't see how you can then consider Allah's word to be perfect. You have clearly stated that it is not.
Original post by Chakede
i think the points been made before tho, that the qurans been translated millions of times and inteprated even more than that over the centuries, with various narratives, analysis and and theories of hundreds of claimed experts. you are saying they should just read it and understand it- clearly that isnt possible. its not really been written in a way thats easily to follow for a non-arab native


That isn't what I meant; what I meant is that many people only have a very cultural and shallow knowledge of Islamic basics, but reading the Quran will help beef up their understanding a bit more. I do understand that obviously people won't understand finer rules without more reading and learning, but that was never my point. Instead I only meant that people should at least make that effort to know what the Quran says in the first place even if they don't understand all of it properly.
Reply 207
Original post by mercuryman
:rolleyes:

Good day.
You're welcome. Any time.
Original post by QE2
You seem to be confusing the arguments here.
I am claiming that a lack of explicit refusal is not consent, and explicit consent by a 8 year old is not valid.
Your post #132 claims that it is.


No it doesn't because straight away the 'competence' of an 8 year old child can be dismissed straight away by any sane and moral muslim parent since clearly their age itself makes them too young to understand life-impacting decisions. Looking at post 132, marriage proposal would be declined straight at step 2.

This keeps going in circles. We'll call it a day here, buddy. Get some rest.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 209
Original post by Khizer.M
This is why the creator gave us free will. Make your own choices your own opinions otherwise he would've made us as angels with the same "morals" if i can say that as him (swt).
You're telling me i have to accept that slavery today is acceptable or otherwise leave islam because i "don't agree" with Allah's "morals" is absurd. I am simply stating that i would not take a slave purely because that's my choice and i don't think it's right. It's the right that Allah has given me - to make my own choice - i'm not refuting Allah and saying that he is wrong and i'm right.. no. It is something that Allah has permitted - whether i choose to act on it or not is between me and the Almighty not you or anyone else.
It goes beyond whether you would take slaves or use them for sex. You still seem to accept that doing so is permitted by Allah.
This isn't like an issue of whether a country's law is fair or acceptable. We are talking about the divine and objective morality of the perfect god.
Whether or not you would use his permission to have sex with your slaves is irrelevant, it is whether his permission is fundamentally morally acceptable.

Your position means that you cannot objectively condemn those who do use slaves for sex, only that you wouldn't do it yourself (which is good!)

To conclude if you're trying to make me lose faith it won't work, my actions and opinions and morals and "political views" are nothing in comparison to Allah (swt).
I will be judged in accordance to my actions and my character.
I am certainly not trying to make you lose your faith, that is something entirely personal. I am merely pointing out that the god that you worship as objectively perfect is nothing of the sort.
Reply 210
Original post by Khizer.M
@QE2
You're definitely a great debater i'll give you that - even tho we've all gone off track a little :wink:

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And I would commend you for not trying to defend slavery simply because it is permitted, although this does raise certain questions about the nature of your belief.

As I have said on many threads, the only way forward for Islam is for more Muslims to move away from the slavish assumption that the Quran, and Muhammad's example, are perfect, and to accept that some elements of traditional Islam must be unequivocally rejected (like the permission to take slaves and use them for sex). It would appear that you are halfway there.
Original post by QE2
So you think that Allah was wrong to allow taking slaves and to allow using them for sex.

If you think that Allah is wrong about something because you personally consider it to be wrong, you are rejecting Allah's morality in favour of your own.

I agree with you on this, but I don't see how you can then consider Allah's word to be perfect. You have clearly stated that it is not.


Lets put this into simpler terms.
lets say Allah has written that it is "correct to take slaves after war"
I am saying that it is incorrect.
Me saying that it is incorrect isn't confronting Allah and challenging his authority on it or diasgreeing it's simply taking a neutral stance as i'm not acting on it e.g I'm not taking any slaves.
Others might do because it's permissable but i am not because it's the right Allah has given me: to do and not to do.
Me not taking a slave has no effect on me when i'm judged about my life on this earth on judgement day.
The same way you (idk if you believe in a religion - seems like you don't) don't believe in a religion but i do doesn't mean i'm openly confronting you about it, it just means: this is what my actions are these are what yours are and that's it.
Becauseon the day of judgement i won't be judged on my opinion about taking war slaves i'll be judged on my actions.

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Original post by AperfectBalance
Oh boy what a load of tosh.


Let's see what your in depth knowledge and well written reponse has to offer us:

So firstly sure men and women have differences and that is not a bad thing nor should it be ignored, but you have to remember that These differences do not warrent Women wearing veils women not having sex before marriage, not being allowed to go out without a male escort or not being able to drive cars, this is pure sexism and is pretty vile.

(1) No one has said that it is a bad thing.
(2) Modesty is required by men and women. Veiling of the face is recommended to Muslim women for their own sake but is of benefit to both men and women alike, but just because women would choose to veil and men would not (in normal circumstances anyway), that does not make it bad.
(3) Sex before marriage is not allowed for men or women, so this point is nonsense.
(4) Travelling distances with a male escort is for the woman's safety, not as form of oppression.
(5) Not being able to drive cars is not a part of Islam; that is a law unique to Saudi Arabia.

You have the moronic leaders saying that women cannot drive due to seatbelts hurting their wombs and ovaries, this is a load of *******s and only a idiot would say this. They talk about how women should not go out as it is dangerous, you see how these idiotic leaders try and spin everything to be "oh we are doing it for the best as it is helping women"

(*) Refer to (5)

So yes lets talk about those vile evils of..... Music. Music is something that brings people together and has done many wonders for the world. but no its evil as it distracts people, do you know what else distracts people for a long time. praying 5 times a day. and yes people do listen to music but if you think loads of people go ok I am going to sit here with some music on and do nothing then you are crazy, most people do it while doing other things, Driving the car, pop the radio on, doing the dishes, cleaning cooking writing or just as some ambience. And music makes many people happy, something allah does not like, people having fun.


(6) I was talking about music within an Islamic context, so your points have no relevance here as my discussion with her was reconcilling reasoning with the Islamic prohibition.
(7) Within the Islamic context, one would be unable to engage in acts of Ibadah whilst listening to music since it is simply not practical/possible e.g. dhikr, reciting Quran, praying etc.
(8) There are other reasons why music is negative which I have not mentioned, but the subject was too much to type on my phone, but that indeed was sufficient.
(9) Haram things could constitute 'fun' e.g. drinking alcohol, but it does not mean it is good for one's spiritual or personal wellbeing.

and those musicians who are "wasting" their time normally do it because they enjoy it and make millions of other people happy and many musicians donate money to charity and good causes. and your idea about gambling sure gambling is not the best thing to do but now and then it is fun and as long as you know your limits it is fine, and card counting does not take too long to learn, I know how to count cards and it took me less than 2 months to get good at it, granted I am not the best at it, and for many gambling is a bit of fun, once again something the big guy in the sky does not like.

(*) Refer to (6)
(10) It's becoming increasingly apparent that your post is not about discussing my advice within an Islamic context (which was the point of my discussion with her and this thread). Your points are just ramblings of your views with no actual link to the topic at hand. Thank you for wasting both of our times.
(11) Gambling is prohibited in Islam.

and sure things can take over peoples lives much like how Religion can ruin and take over peoples lives and both are bad, but many people are not obsessed with music or gambling so your point is invalid. and you think that sitting in a room praying is a more valuable use of time. pff


(12) Things done in the correct way will not ruin one's life. Islam done in the correct way will not ruin someones life, rather it will enhance it, though it will be at the expense of things deemed to be unnecessary or bad.
(13) Yes, praying is more beneficial than listening to music, though you would not understand that as you are not muslim. Please refer back to (11).


"but this is sufficient as a rational explanation for why music is prohibited"

No no it is not it is completely irrational


(*) Refer to (6, 11)

Now I do not care what someone says about sex slaves being fine He is wrong slavery in all kinds in wrong and no your prisoners were not treated how you suggest and far worse than today.

"(than that of those who have captured them), kept away from society, segregated from the opposite gender, treated as bags of meat and bone instead of as human beings etc"
I am glad prisoners are treated better than women in islam


(14) Provide proof that these rights do not exist in Islam as taught by the Prophet.
(15) Men are segregated from the opposite gender too.
(16) Women are not treated like modern prisoners. Women are treated better.

Oh boy what a load of tosh.


I agree, your post was.
(edited 7 years ago)
@QE2
I think by now you and i both know where we stand on all this. From an objective pov alot of it is to do with what us as individuals choose to do and that's where morals and contemporary views come in. I personally don't want everyone to take everyone else as slaves...
And i'd advise muslims against it even if they use the argument "its permissable". Yes it is - but have some empathy - how would you feel if you were in their position etc.

No matter how much debating we do on TSR forums nothing's gonna change.
This is my last post coz i've been goin 12 rounds with you and a couple others since mornin' lmfao

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You should be stoned to death end of

lol joke

I would say it is completely natural to doubt a stoneage ideology but also doubt the existence of God because there is no evidence for 'god' whatsoever.
Original post by Zamestaneh
Instead I only meant that people should at least make that effort to know what the Quran says in the first place even if they don't understand all of it properly.


i think its this lack ability to understand it easily thats caused a lot of problems in the muslim world so far.
Original post by Anonymous
Your emotions doesn't matter, music doesn't matter, sex slaves is not true and it's not rape and it don't matter, what you think is sexism doesn't matter. All that matters is Allah exists, he decides what's right and what's wrong and he commands you to submit to him, do you acknowledge Allah, do you submit to him and do your namaaz, if not then may Allah guide you back to Islam. We can't have weak people in the ummah.


Sex slaves is true. I have done lots of research on this area. If God didn't want us to question things even regarding Islam then why did he give us a brain? Why did he give us the ability to think and analyse? Why did he give us an intellect?

Why didn't he just make people brain dead and believe anything you're told. Theres a reason God gave us the ability think for ourselves and to question things. It's people like you that are easily blinded and close minded. Your brain is a terrible thing to waste. We would all be zombies, there's a reason why God gave us a brain. I don't believe I'm sinning by having doubts or questioning things, it's part of human nature and we'll never really get the answers until after death. Nothing is guaranteed to happen. We don't have the answers.
Original post by Khizer.M
Like i said, the quran was revealed 1400 years ago where slavery was fine - i'm not saying i disagree with the quran nor am i saying it is "outdated" it will never be. The quran mentions slavery as being PERMISSABLE so it is upto you to decide whether to take a slave or not. Just like in some countries the death penalty is an optional punishment for criminals but it's upto the judge to decide whether it is the best option - based on the facts and all that


i think if someone came up to me and suggested that slavery should become 'permissable' id take issue with them and certainly wouldnt want to have much to do with them. dont really see why mohammed wouldnt be regarded in the same manor
Original post by Zamestaneh
Let's see what your in depth knowledge and well written reponse has to offer us:


(1) No one has said that it is a bad thing.
(2) Modesty is required by men and women. Veiling of the face is recommended to Muslim women for their own sake but is of benefit to both men and women alike, but just because women would choose to veil and men would not (in normal circumstances anyway), that does not make it bad.
(3) Sex before marriage is not allowed for men or women, so this point is nonsense.
(4) Travelling distances with a male escort is for the woman's safety, not as form of oppression.
(5) Not being able to drive cars is not a part of Islam; that is a law unique to Saudi Arabia.


(*) Refer to (5)



(6) I was talking about music within an Islamic context, so your points have no relevance here as my discussion with her was reconcilling reasoning with the Islamic prohibition.
(7) Within the Islamic context, one would be unable to engage in acts of Ibadah whilst listening to music since it is simply not practical/possible e.g. dhikr, reciting Quran, praying etc.
(8) There are other reasons why music is negative which I have not mentioned, but the subject was too much to type on my phone, but that indeed was sufficient.
(9) Haram things could constitute 'fun' e.g. drinking alcohol, but it does not mean it is good for one's spiritual or personal wellbeing.


(*) Refer to (6)
(10) It's becoming increasingly apparent that your post is not about discussing my advice within an Islamic context (which was the point of my discussion with her and this thread). Your points are just ramblings of your views with no actual link to the topic at hand. Thank you for wasting both of our times.
(11) Gambling is prohibited in Islam.



(12) Things done in the correct way will not ruin one's life. Islam done in the correct way will not ruin someones life, rather it will enhance it, though it will be at the expense of things deemed to be unnecessary or bad.
(13) Yes, praying is more beneficial than listening to music, though you would not understand that as you are not muslim. Please refer back to (11).




(*) Refer to (6, 11)



(14) Provide proof that these rights do not exist in Islam as taught by the Prophet.
(15) Men are segregated from the opposite gender too.
(16) Women are not treated like modern prisoners. Women are treated better.



I agree, your post was.







1) No one has said that it is a bad thing. I never said you did.

(2) Modesty is required by men and women. Veiling of the face is recommended to Muslim women for their own sake but is of benefit to both men and women alike, but just because women would choose to veil and men would not (in normal circumstances anyway), that does not make
it bad. It is bad because it is very forced and many women do not have a choice and no it has no sensible benefit and you see how you try and spin it to be "oh we are doing something good" sure if a woman wants to go ahead but if she refuses she does not have to.

(3) Sex before marriage is not allowed for men or women, so this point is nonsense. Sex before marriage should be allowed for everyone.

(4) Travelling distances with a male escort is for the woman's safety, not as form of oppression.
It is oppression if a woman wants to go out alone she should be allowed. it is trapping a women in and while sure many people may not want to go down dark allyways if she wanted to pop to the local store to get some food it is not dangerous in all honesty

(5) Not being able to drive cars is not a part of Islam; that is a law unique to Saudi Arabia.
A law justified by Islam and Islamic preachers


(*) Refer to (5)



(6) I was talking about music within an Islamic context, so your points have no relevance here as my discussion with her was reconcilling reasoning with the Islamic prohibition.
My point was not to say that wrong in islams eyes it was that it is a stupid idea within a logical and normal world.

(7) Within the Islamic context, one would be unable to engage in acts of Ibadah whilst listening to music since it is simply not practical/possible e.g. dhikr, reciting Quran, praying etc
. Sure have your quiet and peaceful times where there is no music but if someone wants music it should be perfectly fine. and one again I am not arguing that It is wrong in Islams eyes but from a sensible viewpoint

(8) There are other reasons why music is negative which I have not mentioned, but the subject was too much to type on my phone, but that indeed was sufficient.
(9) Haram things could constitute 'fun' e.g. drinking alcohol, but it does not mean it is good for one's spiritual or personal wellbeing. No such thing as spiritual well-being and and drinking is not really bad in small quantities and can lead to good .




(*) Refer to (6)
(10) It's becoming increasingly apparent that your post is not about discussing my advice within an Islamic context (which was the point of my discussion with her and this thread). Your points are just ramblings of your views with no actual link to the topic at hand. Thank you for wasting both of our times.


Yes my post was discussing it from a normal point of view as the person is doubting religion and I am showing why some of these rules are stupid

(11) Gambling is prohibited in Islam.
Never disputed this, just showing that it being prohibited is stupid.


(12) Things done in the correct way will not ruin one's life. Islam done in the correct way will not ruin someones life, rather it will enhance it, though it will be at the expense of things deemed to be unnecessary or bad
I would rather have a life not controlled by my own false belief in a slaver in the sky, there is no actual enhancements to being a Muslim so yeah it is a waste.


(13) Yes, praying is more beneficial than listening to music, though you would not understand that as you are not muslim. Please refer back to (11).
It is a waste of time and once again I am not saying that in Islam it is a waste of time but saying that logically it is perfectly fine to listen to music




(*) Refer to (6, 11)



(14) Provide proof that these rights do not exist in Islam as taught by the Prophet. Not going quran diving tonight.
(15) Men are segregated from the opposite gender too That is how segregation works. If women are separated from men obviously men are separated from women. but logically they should not be segregated as it is sexist
(16) Women are not treated like modern prisoners. Women are treated
They are in many ways a slave to their husband and are treated as second class prisoners, but the thing about prisoners are most have done something bad to deserve the punishment and most will be released one day.


Prisoners
mostly confined to prisons
Cant easily get out when they want to
Mostly forced to wear uniform
Lives are ruled over by guards/officers
Most Have a chance to get out

Islamic women

mostly confined to Houses and are expected to be a house wife/woman
Cant easily get out when they want to
Mostly forced to wear a form of veil
Lives are ruled over by Men
Very little chance to get out.
Reply 219
Original post by Anonymous
I was born and raised Muslim. The faith has a lot of good things about it.

However recently, I am starting to have doubts. I'm not as religious as I used to be. Particularly being a female, I find some parts of Islam extremely sexist.

For example women have to cover up, men can take up to 4 wives, Muslim women must only marry Muslim men, underage girls are allowed to marry as soon as start puberty ,women aren't allowed to leave the house without a male relative, women will make up the majority in hellfire because they are ungrateful to their husbands , sex slaves are permissible during war, woman's testimony often counts half of a man's testimony, women inheritance half that of a man, a woman must always obey her husband etc.

But I've read up on all the above and I do appreciate some of them give good reasons as to why. But one thing I can't get over is the fact our prophet Muhammed (pbuh) married Aisha (r.a) when she was only 6 years old. The reason I've heard include those were the times it happened a lot then, She contributed to the spread of Muhammad's(pbuh) message and served the Muslim community for 44 years after his death, the marriage not being consummated until she had reached puberty at the age of nine or ten years old etc. It's really hard for me to overlook.

But seriously if some joe public did that everyone would find it disgusting. What makes it a problem for me is that men are meant to follow the sunnah of the prophet. This means it's ok for Muslim men to take underage bride. It happens a lot in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.

I'm just starting to lose my faith a little and it is mostly to do with its attitude towards women.


A lot of what you have quoted is information preached by humans. The religion of Islam is outlined in the Quran. Women in Islam have a lot more rights than you think. Instead of listening to hadiths or the words of imams for example, go and study the Quran and only then will you realise how the religion of Islam is a religion of peace, mercy and love. It will teach you to live a good lifestyle. No where in the Quran does it mention that a women has to cover herself from head to toe - however it does say do cover up to avoid attention from others, how so? Don't reveal what is to be seen only by your husband.

You'd be surprised what God has described in the Quran in terms of women and how husbands should treat them. You'll be surprised how much empathises is on treating your wife and daughters well. I won't dwell on it too much but read the book of guidance and don't take the words of preachers too seriously! After all, we are all humans and we make mistakes but God doesn't so understand Gods words and message - you'll be glad you did 👍🏻

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