why are most homophobes a*******?
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Original post by Robby2312
Yes they are.Even if they dont actively harm gay people then they still have negative attitudes.These attitudes will likely be passed onto their children who will then be homophobic themselves.If you have people with negative attitudes towards gay people then their more likely to vote for a goverment with homophobic views.This could lead to homophobic laws being passed.In addition if they have gay children it could lead to them hating themselves which could lead to suicide.Gay people are 3 times more likely to commit suicide and it probably doesnt help if the people around them are all homophobic.At the very least it shows ignorance.
your calling people a***** simply because they disagree with someones view? lol
Original post by Hashtosh302
your calling people a***** simply because they disagree with someones view? lol
Yes because their viewpoint is actively harmful and its not founded upon any rational basis.So yeah I can call them an ******* because they're being willfully ignorant and prejudiced.
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
Correlation. People are complicated, and indoctrination is a very real thing. Someone could be the nicest person in the world in many ways, and not be hostile to gay people, but be against gay marriage for religious reasons. I wouldn't call them an as*hole. I would say they are at worst stupid, and at best misguided. We should try to understand why people hold certain views rather than instantly damning them, even if we disagree on a very fundamental level, and recognise that there are indeed degrees of a*sholery.
And so what? You're a perfect human being who's 100% right and anyone who doesn't believ what you believe is what, 'at worst stupid, and at best misguided'.
Haha mate, get out of here! I say live and let live out here, stop trying to covert people to your way of living.
Original post by bakedbeans247
And so what? You're a perfect human being who's 100% right and anyone who doesn't believ what you believe is what, 'at worst stupid, and at best misguided'. Haha mate, get out of here! I say live and let live out here, stop trying to covert people to your way of living.
Haha mate, get out of here! I say live and let live out here, stop trying to covert people to your way of living.No, but that is what I think of them. It is clear that this is opinion given that I said "I would say they are..". Considering the amount of open hostility on this thread towards people who hold homophobia of any degree, I find it strange that you single out my relatively benign comment. In addition I didn't say we should force them to believe anything. People are perfectly within their rights to try and push an opinion, provided they don't do it on impressionable children (and most of the time, pushing things on impressionable children is what yields homophobia), and the people they approach are perfectly within their rights to tell them to **** off. "Live and let live" doesn't mean "never challenge someone's views". Furthermore why should people who would, given the opportunity, opt to disallow certain people from a pretty basic and important right, be given such protection from criticism and people trying to "convert" them, when they themselves are so intolerant of other ways of life?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Rirjfbfn
OP is an ********
I take it your a homophobe?
Usually people who are homophobic are also racist and sexist, it's as if someone have a stupid gene which makes them closed minded fools.
Original post by stefano865
I guess they seem that way because you strongly disagree with them.
No, it's the way some of them are abusive to people just because they're attracted to someone of the same sex. And the way some of them choose to blindly follow what's written in ancient, fictional, texts rather than moving on with the times.
Original post by miless090
No, it's the way some of them are abusive to people just because they're attracted to someone of the same sex. And the way some of them choose to blindly follow what's written in ancient, fictional, texts rather than moving on with the times.
**** off you bender.
That's your opinion.
I think many people on here do not understand something.
There is a huge dilemma. If you're religious and you follow a religion that says it is God inspired and it is against homosexuality then because you believe an all-knowing, infinite God that agrees with this concept, you'd agree too. You'd be thinking in your mind who are you, a mortal being who only sees the physical aspect of the world and doesn't know it all or the whole truth to a situation to argue which then leads you to agreeing with a concept.
You need to understand many of these "homophobes" aren't "homophobes". I can bet you, at least 95 % of them wouldn't be against homosexuality if their religion was for it or didn't at all mention it. But many world religions that have billions of followers ARE against it so I never take it personally when I hear Christians, Muslims or even Buddist against it. Now thinking of it, almost all religions are against homosexuality...
I used to be against homosexuality when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I was once religious and I still consider myself a Christian but it's complicated at the moment. It was the lifestyle I immensely disagreed with but towards the person there was no hatred. My gay friend then who I still speak to struggled being a gay Christian and was against the lifestyle too.
Here's the thing. You see it as if these people are against gay people, majority of them are not. They would be against eating chocolate if their religious text said it was a sin, I mean some Christians don't eat shellfish while some Muslims, many don't eat Pork. To many religious people, it is choose God (said to be an all-knowing being, perfect being) or choose the world or anything sinful or haram that has many errors and problems.
Then science doesn't claim to be all knowing which is why it doesn't satisfy many people. It's observation and testing. One day, it will say something is "good" then the next day it will turn around and say the very same thing it claimed as good, to be "bad". It updates itself. So to the religious person, back for me anyway when I tried relying on science at times I was confused because of this. Not saying it's bad for science to update itself, this makes sense as our knowledge and technology is increasing but to the religious person it's why choose a method that needs constant changes with their claims when you can choose an all knowing being that sees beyond time and knows the ultimate truth, getting the full picture. You'd think God's apparent opinion as the best.
Because of this, this is what drives MANY religious people to be against homosexuality and it's why you see parents disowning their children, trying to find cures for them being gay or taking them to gay cure camps. These parents love their children but to choose them over God and to allow them continue in a lifestyle that is deemed an abomination, borderline evil, would make them think they completely failed as parents.
To an atheist it is "ancient, not to mention fictional, texts, over science" but to a religious theist, this is real, a way of living and fundamental beliefs. If you believe you'll be judged by a God after you die, you'd try your best to live according to what you believe is its/his/her's divine word. People dedicate their lives to their religion. So overall, these people have nothing personally against gay people. They wouldn't care about people being gay if it wasn't mentioned in their religion's sacred texts.
Worldwide Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality.
So blame religion.
I think many people on here do not understand something.
There is a huge dilemma. If you're religious and you follow a religion that says it is God inspired and it is against homosexuality then because you believe an all-knowing, infinite God that agrees with this concept, you'd agree too. You'd be thinking in your mind who are you, a mortal being who only sees the physical aspect of the world and doesn't know it all or the whole truth to a situation to argue which then leads you to agreeing with a concept.
You need to understand many of these "homophobes" aren't "homophobes". I can bet you, at least 95 % of them wouldn't be against homosexuality if their religion was for it or didn't at all mention it. But many world religions that have billions of followers ARE against it so I never take it personally when I hear Christians, Muslims or even Buddist against it. Now thinking of it, almost all religions are against homosexuality...
I used to be against homosexuality when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I was once religious and I still consider myself a Christian but it's complicated at the moment. It was the lifestyle I immensely disagreed with but towards the person there was no hatred. My gay friend then who I still speak to struggled being a gay Christian and was against the lifestyle too.
Here's the thing. You see it as if these people are against gay people, majority of them are not. They would be against eating chocolate if their religious text said it was a sin, I mean some Christians don't eat shellfish while some Muslims, many don't eat Pork. To many religious people, it is choose God (said to be an all-knowing being, perfect being) or choose the world or anything sinful or haram that has many errors and problems.
Then science doesn't claim to be all knowing which is why it doesn't satisfy many people. It's observation and testing. One day, it will say something is "good" then the next day it will turn around and say the very same thing it claimed as good, to be "bad". It updates itself. So to the religious person, back for me anyway when I tried relying on science at times I was confused because of this. Not saying it's bad for science to update itself, this makes sense as our knowledge and technology is increasing but to the religious person it's why choose a method that needs constant changes with their claims when you can choose an all knowing being that sees beyond time and knows the ultimate truth, getting the full picture. You'd think God's apparent opinion as the best.
Because of this, this is what drives MANY religious people to be against homosexuality and it's why you see parents disowning their children, trying to find cures for them being gay or taking them to gay cure camps. These parents love their children but to choose them over God and to allow them continue in a lifestyle that is deemed an abomination, borderline evil, would make them think they completely failed as parents.
To an atheist it is "ancient, not to mention fictional, texts, over science" but to a religious theist, this is real, a way of living and fundamental beliefs. If you believe you'll be judged by a God after you die, you'd try your best to live according to what you believe is its/his/her's divine word. People dedicate their lives to their religion. So overall, these people have nothing personally against gay people. They wouldn't care about people being gay if it wasn't mentioned in their religion's sacred texts.
Worldwide Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality.
So blame religion.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by miless090
No, it's the way some of them are abusive to people just because they're attracted to someone of the same sex. And the way some of them choose to blindly follow what's written in ancient, fictional, texts rather than moving on with the times.
You're choosing to see this in a very 2D, short-sighted view.
If you believed God inspired these texts for whatever reason, you'd think you are "moving on with the times" because he is said to go BEYOND time. In many of these sacred texts, God is portrayed to be the beginning and the end so time to him/her does not affect it meaning it's opinion would be the truest of trues since it isn't constrained to time unlike everything else in the universe including science! An example, take a look at Christianity. The bible describes God as the alpha and the omega, limitless to time, the beginning and the end, the source and father of all creation.
This isn't only found in Christianity.
Many followers of religions are followers because they were born into the religion. Some also had unexplained, supernatural experiences (me though my views have changed quite a bit) then some see it as a culture. I've noticed this with many Muslims and Christians. Many have made their religion part of their identity, just as with race. It's why governments struggle with bringing new concepts to nations. You dare try going to Congo with this and it's world war 3. The Uk is very liberal compared to other continents and countries. There is a struggle because it's either tell people to change their beliefs, going against their religious freedoms or go against the human rights of gay people. I think both is bad and dangerous. I'm not here to tell people what they should believe in but I believe we should all respect each other's views. I am no longer against homosexuality however many of my loving friends and even some family members who became Christian are. I've accepted it's their opinion and they've accepted me agreeing with homosexuality is mine.
And one last thing, I think something we need to change is the view that if someone disagrees with homosexuality, that they are automatically somehow disgusting, hateful homophobe a*******. If you want to change people's views, your method of reasoning, in my opinion would really need to change. Instead, try to understand the reason behind them disagreeing or being against homosexuality. It's rarely you ever find people who are against homosexuality just because they are simply afraid or disgusted by gay people.
I feel this way, you'd have people to think and reconsider some of the religious views they uphold. Then if their opinions still haven't changed, leave them alone. You should never force anyone to agree with you even if you are certain that your opinion is correct.
I've met many racist people online and even befriended some. After they realised how normal I was, their opinions changed. I didn't have to do anything either than being kind but also assertive. I backed off when I realised that their opinions were solidly in place. Of course I did get angry because I was called terrible names. That's the thing. With many people I've been around labelled as homophobes because of their religious beliefs never once labelled gay people derogatory names or saw them any less than a human being. All I've met, have been against the persecution of gay people. (Just stating my experience)
Anywhoo, I realised some were racist because of terrible experiences they had or were racist because of upheld beliefs of different ideologies they were raised up in. And few were racist simply because people of colour were "different".
It's easy for many on here to say, these people shouldn't put their beliefs on their children well... isn't that very hypocritical? You would too if you thought your beliefs were good since we'd all want the best for our children generally speaking. Every parent installs some kind of morality and beliefs in their children whether or not you agree with these beliefs. Atheists do it, Christians do it, Muslims do, Sikhs do it, Buddhists do it and even those considered bigots by society. Everyone has something in common, many install their beliefs into their children because they believe these beliefs are GOOD. It's hardly ever you meet a parent doing so to purposely harm their children. To end with this note, the motives of an atheist telling his or her son that being gay is acceptable is no different from a Christian telling his or her daughter that being gay is a sin. Both parents are going off by what they believe and see as right, as coherently good. The only difference is the atheist doesn't believe in a God or a religion but the theist does.
I feel this way, you'd have people to think and reconsider some of the religious views they uphold. Then if their opinions still haven't changed, leave them alone. You should never force anyone to agree with you even if you are certain that your opinion is correct.
I've met many racist people online and even befriended some. After they realised how normal I was, their opinions changed. I didn't have to do anything either than being kind but also assertive. I backed off when I realised that their opinions were solidly in place. Of course I did get angry because I was called terrible names. That's the thing. With many people I've been around labelled as homophobes because of their religious beliefs never once labelled gay people derogatory names or saw them any less than a human being. All I've met, have been against the persecution of gay people. (Just stating my experience)
Anywhoo, I realised some were racist because of terrible experiences they had or were racist because of upheld beliefs of different ideologies they were raised up in. And few were racist simply because people of colour were "different".
It's easy for many on here to say, these people shouldn't put their beliefs on their children well... isn't that very hypocritical? You would too if you thought your beliefs were good since we'd all want the best for our children generally speaking. Every parent installs some kind of morality and beliefs in their children whether or not you agree with these beliefs. Atheists do it, Christians do it, Muslims do, Sikhs do it, Buddhists do it and even those considered bigots by society. Everyone has something in common, many install their beliefs into their children because they believe these beliefs are GOOD. It's hardly ever you meet a parent doing so to purposely harm their children. To end with this note, the motives of an atheist telling his or her son that being gay is acceptable is no different from a Christian telling his or her daughter that being gay is a sin. Both parents are going off by what they believe and see as right, as coherently good. The only difference is the atheist doesn't believe in a God or a religion but the theist does.
(edited 7 years ago)
I'm interested in this because I'm a misanthrope. I can't help it. I don't choose to be a misanthrope. I try to look for the good in humanity but I can only conclude that most humans are *********.
If all homophobes are ********* then of course that means that the overwhelming majority of people who ever lived were *********.
I agree of course.
If all homophobes are ********* then of course that means that the overwhelming majority of people who ever lived were *********.
I agree of course.
There is btw nothing homophobic about wishing to avoid militant homosexuals/liberals pushing their gender-queer agenda in to the mainstream cultural zeitgeist (people like Graham Norton who the BBC force down our necks).
Original post by Cherry82
That's your opinion.
I think many people on here do not understand something.
There is a huge dilemma. If you're religious and you follow a religion that says it is God inspired and it is against homosexuality then because you believe an all-knowing, infinite God that agrees with this concept, you'd agree too. You'd be thinking in your mind who are you, a mortal being who only sees the physical aspect of the world and doesn't know it all or the whole truth to a situation to argue which then leads you to agreeing with a concept.
You need to understand many of these "homophobes" aren't "homophobes". I can bet you, at least 95 % of them wouldn't be against homosexuality if their religion was for it or didn't at all mention it. But many world religions that have billions of followers ARE against it so I never take it personally when I hear Christians, Muslims or even Buddist against it. Now thinking of it, almost all religions are against homosexuality...
I used to be against homosexuality when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I was once religious and I still consider myself a Christian but it's complicated at the moment. It was the lifestyle I immensely disagreed with but towards the person there was no hatred. My gay friend then who I still speak to struggled being a gay Christian and was against the lifestyle too.
Here's the thing. You see it as if these people are against gay people, majority of them are not. They would be against eating chocolate if their religious text said it was a sin, I mean some Christians don't eat shellfish while some Muslims, many don't eat Pork. To many religious people, it is choose God (said to be an all-knowing being, perfect being) or choose the world or anything sinful or haram that has many errors and problems.
Then science doesn't claim to be all knowing which is why it doesn't satisfy many people. It's observation and testing. One day, it will say something is "good" then the next day it will turn around and say the very same thing it claimed as good, to be "bad". It updates itself. So to the religious person, back for me anyway when I tried relying on science at times I was confused because of this. Not saying it's bad for science to update itself, this makes sense as our knowledge and technology is increasing but to the religious person it's why choose a method that needs constant changes with their claims when you can choose an all knowing being that sees beyond time and knows the ultimate truth, getting the full picture. You'd think God's apparent opinion as the best.
Because of this, this is what drives MANY religious people to be against homosexuality and it's why you see parents disowning their children, trying to find cures for them being gay or taking them to gay cure camps. These parents love their children but to choose them over God and to allow them continue in a lifestyle that is deemed an abomination, borderline evil, would make them think they completely failed as parents.
To an atheist it is "ancient, not to mention fictional, texts, over science" but to a religious theist, this is real, a way of living and fundamental beliefs. If you believe you'll be judged by a God after you die, you'd try your best to live according to what you believe is its/his/her's divine word. People dedicate their lives to their religion. So overall, these people have nothing personally against gay people. They wouldn't care about people being gay if it wasn't mentioned in their religion's sacred texts.
Worldwide Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality.
So blame religion.
I think many people on here do not understand something.
There is a huge dilemma. If you're religious and you follow a religion that says it is God inspired and it is against homosexuality then because you believe an all-knowing, infinite God that agrees with this concept, you'd agree too. You'd be thinking in your mind who are you, a mortal being who only sees the physical aspect of the world and doesn't know it all or the whole truth to a situation to argue which then leads you to agreeing with a concept.
You need to understand many of these "homophobes" aren't "homophobes". I can bet you, at least 95 % of them wouldn't be against homosexuality if their religion was for it or didn't at all mention it. But many world religions that have billions of followers ARE against it so I never take it personally when I hear Christians, Muslims or even Buddist against it. Now thinking of it, almost all religions are against homosexuality...
I used to be against homosexuality when I was a fundamentalist Christian. I was once religious and I still consider myself a Christian but it's complicated at the moment. It was the lifestyle I immensely disagreed with but towards the person there was no hatred. My gay friend then who I still speak to struggled being a gay Christian and was against the lifestyle too.
Here's the thing. You see it as if these people are against gay people, majority of them are not. They would be against eating chocolate if their religious text said it was a sin, I mean some Christians don't eat shellfish while some Muslims, many don't eat Pork. To many religious people, it is choose God (said to be an all-knowing being, perfect being) or choose the world or anything sinful or haram that has many errors and problems.
Then science doesn't claim to be all knowing which is why it doesn't satisfy many people. It's observation and testing. One day, it will say something is "good" then the next day it will turn around and say the very same thing it claimed as good, to be "bad". It updates itself. So to the religious person, back for me anyway when I tried relying on science at times I was confused because of this. Not saying it's bad for science to update itself, this makes sense as our knowledge and technology is increasing but to the religious person it's why choose a method that needs constant changes with their claims when you can choose an all knowing being that sees beyond time and knows the ultimate truth, getting the full picture. You'd think God's apparent opinion as the best.
Because of this, this is what drives MANY religious people to be against homosexuality and it's why you see parents disowning their children, trying to find cures for them being gay or taking them to gay cure camps. These parents love their children but to choose them over God and to allow them continue in a lifestyle that is deemed an abomination, borderline evil, would make them think they completely failed as parents.
To an atheist it is "ancient, not to mention fictional, texts, over science" but to a religious theist, this is real, a way of living and fundamental beliefs. If you believe you'll be judged by a God after you die, you'd try your best to live according to what you believe is its/his/her's divine word. People dedicate their lives to their religion. So overall, these people have nothing personally against gay people. They wouldn't care about people being gay if it wasn't mentioned in their religion's sacred texts.
Worldwide Abrahamic religions are against homosexuality.
So blame religion.
This argument is flawed.You're saying that religous people are only homophobic because they believe God to be against it.However there are a lot of verses in the bible where God forbids something but religous people completely disregard it.For example God forbids eating shellfish,or wearing mixed fabrics at the same time.On occasion he condones murder or even genocide and slavery.Yet no one takes these verses seriously anymore.Christians simply cherry pick verses to support their pre-existing view that homosexuality is wrong.They hide behind the bible because this is more acceptable but they'd still be homophobic if it didnt exist they'd just find some other excuse.Furthermore they cant be excused of being homophobic simply because an old book says so,it demonstrates a lack of critical thinking skills and an ignorance of the world around them.The truth is that most christians havent actually read the bible properly they cherrypick the parts they like and leave out the parts they dont like.In this case like the bits where it says homosexuality is wrong and dont give it any thought beyond that even though a lot of these verses have been shown to be mistranslations.The whole sodom and gommorah thing,that wasnt about homosexuality but about rape.
Original post by Robby2312
....
This argument is flawed?
There's no "argument" here, I was not arguing but simply telling and explaining the reality to why many people .ie religious people such as Christians (not just Christians but other religious people) are against homosexuality. This is not me making up ideas but stating the truth about religions.
Wow, you seem very uninformed and ignorant concerning Christianity and what it has to say regarding certain affairs especially after the "shellfish and mixing fabric" statement. But I'll spear you on this one because its one of those things people outside the religion quite often misunderstand. This religion and the bible are both actually very complicated, it really isn't as simple as here's colour black and here is colour white. I need to break this down completely so you may understand this whole topic. (Point of correction, the bible doesn't specifically mention "shellfish" but instead it states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you." So anything under this category: lobster, scallops, oysters, mussels, squid, octopus, crabs etc etc follows.)
Anyway, to start off- within the bible, there is the Old testament and New testament. The Old testament is the exact, sacred scripture of the Jewish TaNaKh but also consists of other sacred Jewish books from the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim. These scriptures along with other Jewish scriptures i.e Midrash are what make up the Judaism religion. Though Christianity also known as Judo-Christianity derives from Judaism, Christianity and Judaism are not the same!
Leviticus 11:12 (the shellfish passage you were mentioning) is found in the old testament as with Leviticus 11:7-8 that forbids eating pork. These are all part of the Kosher tradition. Kosher is a Jewish tradition which sets out foods that are satisfying under the requirements of Jewish law. Anything that is not Kosher so pork, marine animals without fins or scales such as Shellfish are forbidden for Jews to eat. Christians aren't Jews!
Why Jews avoid these foods is because they believe that these foods are unclean due to the passages mentioned and since Jews believe that they must keep spiritually clean and atone for their own sins until their saviour returns, anything unclean they must avoid. Christians, on the other hand do believe the saviour came to Earth which is Jesus Christ. This is where Christianity and Judaism differs, dividin completely. We believe in Jesus Christ and they do not, that Jesus died on the cross and rose again, saving all of humanity so this is where the new testament comes in as a continuation but Jews totally reject.
Kosher is part of Ceremonial Laws. Jews follow Ceremonial, Civil and moral laws because to them Jesus isn't the messiah so the messiah is yet to come meaning they atone for their sins through rituals, sacrifices, following laws and many commandments. It's why they have 613 commandments and Yom Kippur which is the day of repentance where animal sacrifices and fasting is used.
For Christians, they do believe the messiah came- Jesus. Hence why they do not follow Ceremonial laws such as Kosher- not eating pork, not mixing of fabric and Civil laws such as cultural laws made for the Israelites. Before Jesus, I and others would have been considered gentiles that couldn't be saved because we aren't Jewish Israelites however Jesus crossed that barrier and offered salvation to everyone regardless of race.
Since we believe Jesus was the ultimate atonement, we do not engage in Yom Kippur and the Ceremonial, civil laws became non-applicable to us. Jesus the messiah made the ultimate sacrifice and atonement. Christians however do still follow moral laws which address forgiveness, sexuality, friendships, relationships, marriage etc that are addressed both in the old testament and new testament.
Many of the new testament books address moral laws, especially moral laws while Jesus lived on Earth that he preached. You may be thinking well, Leviticus 18:22 that states "you shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." is in the same section as Leviticus 11:12 that's in the old testament which states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you". So then why don't Christians see this as non-applicable to them also. Unfortunately, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Romans 1:26-28 etc which are also against homosexuality are new testament books. The others addressing Ceremonial laws are not.
Christians do cherry pick, but it isn't as simple as you're making it to be. Homosexuality is emphasised. Again, as I had stated if it wasn't mentioned at all many wouldn't even care about the topic as with other topics that are not mentioned in the bible. I do agree that many cherry pick what favours them. Sex before marriage is a sin but it's overlooked by many Christians.
This isn't one of those simple issues.
Christianity itself isn't simple. Even within Christianity there are subdivisions, different types of Christians i.e Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal etc who all have different interpretations, viewing certain passages in the bible quite differently, especially areas that are quite vague. Some Christians believe what's a sin is engaging in same-sex sexual activity whether gay or straight while some believe having anal sex is a sin then others believe it is the attraction that is a sin while some take the liberal approach saying because Jesus didn't mention it, it wouldn't be an issue. But Christians do cherry-pick however it's not always "cherry picking" since not all Christians agree or interpret certain passages of the Bible as the same way but differently.
An example is Pentecostals disagree with drinking alcohol overall, that drinking alcohol is a sin so if you visit a pentecostal church you'd realise what is used as wine for the Eucharist is actually grape juice or any non-alcoholic beverage that mimics wine. On the other hand, Catholics believe drinking alcohol is acceptable but it's being drunk that is a sin so if you visited a Catholic church, real wine is used. So this alone just proves with certain passages, different groups interpret passages differently though the backbone of the message may remain the same. The only thing that brings these groups together is Jesus Christ.
(edited 7 years ago)
Get a grip guys. I am religious and homophobic but I don't hate people's personality, I just hate homosexuality. I think people have really erred nowadays. Social ethics have taken over moral integrity and this is y u get people making threads like this supporting homosexuality. Religion offers the best pathway to morality and righteousness. With out it stultification and foolishness would probably be prevalent everywhere. Sometimes that's what I think the world has come to. And don't tell me that religion is bad. It is people not religion.
Original post by Cherry82
This argument is flawed?
There's no "argument" here, I was not arguing but simply telling and explaining the reality to why many people .ie religious people such as Christians (not just Christians but other religious people) are against homosexuality. This is not me making up ideas but stating the truth about religions.
Wow, you seem very uninformed and ignorant concerning Christianity and what it has to say regarding certain affairs especially after the "shellfish and mixing fabric" statement. But I'll spear you on this one because its one of those things people outside the religion quite often misunderstand. This religion and the bible are both actually very complicated, it really isn't as simple as here's colour black and here is colour white. I need to break this down completely so you may understand this whole topic. (Point of correction, the bible doesn't specifically mention "shellfish" but instead it states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you." So anything under this category: lobster, scallops, oysters, mussels, squid, octopus, crabs etc etc follows.)
Anyway, to start off- within the bible, there is the Old testament and New testament. The Old testament is the exact, sacred scripture of the Jewish TaNaKh but also consists of other sacred Jewish books from the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim. These scriptures along with other Jewish scriptures i.e Midrash are what make up the Judaism religion. Though Christianity also known as Judo-Christianity derives from Judaism, Christianity and Judaism are not the same!
Leviticus 11:12 (the shellfish passage you were mentioning) is found in the old testament as with Leviticus 11:7-8 that forbids eating pork. These are all part of the Kosher tradition. Kosher is a Jewish tradition which sets out foods that are satisfying under the requirements of Jewish law. Anything that is not Kosher so pork, marine animals without fins or scales such as Shellfish are forbidden for Jews to eat. Christians aren't Jews!
Why Jews avoid these foods is because they believe that these foods are unclean due to the passages mentioned and since Jews believe that they must keep spiritually clean and atone for their own sins until their saviour returns, anything unclean they must avoid. Christians, on the other hand do believe the saviour came to Earth which is Jesus Christ. This is where Christianity and Judaism differs, dividin completely. We believe in Jesus Christ and they do not, that Jesus died on the cross and rose again, saving all of humanity so this is where the new testament comes in as a continuation but Jews totally reject.
Kosher is part of Ceremonial Laws. Jews follow Ceremonial, Civil and moral laws because to them Jesus isn't the messiah so the messiah is yet to come meaning they atone for their sins through rituals, sacrifices, following laws and many commandments. It's why they have 613 commandments and Yom Kippur which is the day of repentance where animal sacrifices and fasting is used.
For Christians, they do believe the messiah came- Jesus. Hence why they do not follow Ceremonial laws such as Kosher- not eating pork, not mixing of fabric and Civil laws such as cultural laws made for the Israelites. Before Jesus, I and others would have been considered gentiles that couldn't be saved because we aren't Jewish Israelites however Jesus crossed that barrier and offered salvation to everyone regardless of race.
Since we believe Jesus was the ultimate atonement, we do not engage in Yom Kippur and the Ceremonial, civil laws became non-applicable to us. Jesus the messiah made the ultimate sacrifice and atonement. Christians however do still follow moral laws which address forgiveness, sexuality, friendships, relationships, marriage etc that are addressed both in the old testament and new testament.
Many of the new testament books address moral laws, especially moral laws while Jesus lived on Earth that he preached. You may be thinking well, Leviticus 18:22 that states "you shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." is in the same section as Leviticus 11:12 that's in the old testament which states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you". So then why don't Christians see this as non-applicable to them also. Unfortunately, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Romans 1:26-28 etc which are also against homosexuality are new testament books. The others addressing Ceremonial laws are not.
Christians do cherry pick, but it isn't as simple as you're making it to be. Homosexuality is emphasised. Again, as I had stated if it wasn't mentioned at all many wouldn't even care about the topic as with other topics that are not mentioned in the bible. I do agree that many cherry pick what favours them. Sex before marriage is a sin but it's overlooked by many Christians.
This isn't one of those simple issues.
Christianity itself isn't simple. Even within Christianity there are subdivisions, different types of Christians i.e Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal etc who all have different interpretations, viewing certain passages in the bible quite differently, especially areas that are quite vague. Some Christians believe what's a sin is engaging in same-sex sexual activity whether gay or straight while some believe having anal sex is a sin then others believe it is the attraction that is a sin while some take the liberal approach saying because Jesus didn't mention it, it wouldn't be an issue. But Christians do cherry-pick however it's not always "cherry picking" since not all Christians agree or interpret certain passages of the Bible as the same way but differently.
An example is Pentecostals disagree with drinking alcohol overall, that drinking alcohol is a sin so if you visit a pentecostal church you'd realise what is used as wine for the Eucharist is actually grape juice or any non-alcoholic beverage that mimics wine. On the other hand, Catholics believe drinking alcohol is acceptable but it's being drunk that is a sin so if you visited a Catholic church, real wine is used. So this alone just proves with certain passages, different groups interpret passages differently though the backbone of the message may remain the same. The only thing that brings these groups together is Jesus Christ.
There's no "argument" here, I was not arguing but simply telling and explaining the reality to why many people .ie religious people such as Christians (not just Christians but other religious people) are against homosexuality. This is not me making up ideas but stating the truth about religions.
Wow, you seem very uninformed and ignorant concerning Christianity and what it has to say regarding certain affairs especially after the "shellfish and mixing fabric" statement. But I'll spear you on this one because its one of those things people outside the religion quite often misunderstand. This religion and the bible are both actually very complicated, it really isn't as simple as here's colour black and here is colour white. I need to break this down completely so you may understand this whole topic. (Point of correction, the bible doesn't specifically mention "shellfish" but instead it states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you." So anything under this category: lobster, scallops, oysters, mussels, squid, octopus, crabs etc etc follows.)
Anyway, to start off- within the bible, there is the Old testament and New testament. The Old testament is the exact, sacred scripture of the Jewish TaNaKh but also consists of other sacred Jewish books from the Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim. These scriptures along with other Jewish scriptures i.e Midrash are what make up the Judaism religion. Though Christianity also known as Judo-Christianity derives from Judaism, Christianity and Judaism are not the same!
Leviticus 11:12 (the shellfish passage you were mentioning) is found in the old testament as with Leviticus 11:7-8 that forbids eating pork. These are all part of the Kosher tradition. Kosher is a Jewish tradition which sets out foods that are satisfying under the requirements of Jewish law. Anything that is not Kosher so pork, marine animals without fins or scales such as Shellfish are forbidden for Jews to eat. Christians aren't Jews!
Why Jews avoid these foods is because they believe that these foods are unclean due to the passages mentioned and since Jews believe that they must keep spiritually clean and atone for their own sins until their saviour returns, anything unclean they must avoid. Christians, on the other hand do believe the saviour came to Earth which is Jesus Christ. This is where Christianity and Judaism differs, dividin completely. We believe in Jesus Christ and they do not, that Jesus died on the cross and rose again, saving all of humanity so this is where the new testament comes in as a continuation but Jews totally reject.
Kosher is part of Ceremonial Laws. Jews follow Ceremonial, Civil and moral laws because to them Jesus isn't the messiah so the messiah is yet to come meaning they atone for their sins through rituals, sacrifices, following laws and many commandments. It's why they have 613 commandments and Yom Kippur which is the day of repentance where animal sacrifices and fasting is used.
For Christians, they do believe the messiah came- Jesus. Hence why they do not follow Ceremonial laws such as Kosher- not eating pork, not mixing of fabric and Civil laws such as cultural laws made for the Israelites. Before Jesus, I and others would have been considered gentiles that couldn't be saved because we aren't Jewish Israelites however Jesus crossed that barrier and offered salvation to everyone regardless of race.
Since we believe Jesus was the ultimate atonement, we do not engage in Yom Kippur and the Ceremonial, civil laws became non-applicable to us. Jesus the messiah made the ultimate sacrifice and atonement. Christians however do still follow moral laws which address forgiveness, sexuality, friendships, relationships, marriage etc that are addressed both in the old testament and new testament.
Many of the new testament books address moral laws, especially moral laws while Jesus lived on Earth that he preached. You may be thinking well, Leviticus 18:22 that states "you shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." is in the same section as Leviticus 11:12 that's in the old testament which states "everything in the waters that does not have fins and scales is detestable to you". So then why don't Christians see this as non-applicable to them also. Unfortunately, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Romans 1:26-28 etc which are also against homosexuality are new testament books. The others addressing Ceremonial laws are not.
Christians do cherry pick, but it isn't as simple as you're making it to be. Homosexuality is emphasised. Again, as I had stated if it wasn't mentioned at all many wouldn't even care about the topic as with other topics that are not mentioned in the bible. I do agree that many cherry pick what favours them. Sex before marriage is a sin but it's overlooked by many Christians.
This isn't one of those simple issues.
Christianity itself isn't simple. Even within Christianity there are subdivisions, different types of Christians i.e Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal etc who all have different interpretations, viewing certain passages in the bible quite differently, especially areas that are quite vague. Some Christians believe what's a sin is engaging in same-sex sexual activity whether gay or straight while some believe having anal sex is a sin then others believe it is the attraction that is a sin while some take the liberal approach saying because Jesus didn't mention it, it wouldn't be an issue. But Christians do cherry-pick however it's not always "cherry picking" since not all Christians agree or interpret certain passages of the Bible as the same way but differently.
An example is Pentecostals disagree with drinking alcohol overall, that drinking alcohol is a sin so if you visit a pentecostal church you'd realise what is used as wine for the Eucharist is actually grape juice or any non-alcoholic beverage that mimics wine. On the other hand, Catholics believe drinking alcohol is acceptable but it's being drunk that is a sin so if you visited a Catholic church, real wine is used. So this alone just proves with certain passages, different groups interpret passages differently though the backbone of the message may remain the same. The only thing that brings these groups together is Jesus Christ.
If im uninformed and ignorant concerning christianity then its only because I have better things to do than waste my limited time reading fairytales.Anyway christians do cherrypick things,you say that the old testement only applies to jews but then in the gospel matthew Jesus says "I tell you truly until heaven and earth dissapear not the smallest letter,not the least stroke of a pen shall dissapear from the law".Or something like that.But christians just ignore that bit.Even though here he is clearly saying that the law still applies.You say homosexuality is emphasised but how many times is it actually mentioned? Sodom and Gommorah actually alluded to rape not homosexuality,and at least one of the times its mentioned in the new testement is actually a mistranslation.Jesus himself says nothing on the matter.Sure he says about men leaving mothers to become one with their wives but thats specifically in response to a question about divorce.Homosexuality is only emphasised because christians have pre existing prejudice against gay people and use certain parts of the bible to justify that.
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