Grammar schools to return
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Original post by Bornblue
I'm sick of people making excuses. You want to succeed then work hard, you don't need a grammar school. Do you think kids at grammar schools walk around reading encyclopedias?
There is zero evidence that grammar schools increase social mobility.
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There is zero evidence that grammar schools increase social mobility.
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I am going to become a corporate lawyer. I am going to succeed. I don't need a grammar school. I am only saying I could have done bette.
We live in the day of the Internet and technology. If you think your teacher is preventing you from getting from an A to an A* then maybe you don't deserve an A*. There may be special subjects like possibly English, but from maths to sciences to even languages, you can use the Internet to get an A*.
What's much more important is primary school and early secondary school. You need to instill a certain attitude in kids that makes them want to learn, and not see school as uncool.
What's much more important is primary school and early secondary school. You need to instill a certain attitude in kids that makes them want to learn, and not see school as uncool.
Original post by neal95
I take responsibility for my own underachievements. however all I am saying is that the state schools throws in variables that parents cant control. you would be a thick uneducated **** to argue against that assertion. I wasn't the most studious individual, however in the environment I was in it wasn't "cool" to study. If I went to a place that was more rigorous concerning acadmemics I am sure I would have done better. stop sucking up to the establishment and try and empatathise for a change. just a bit of constructiver criticism
I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?
Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?
Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
I agree! You don't often see an anti-intellectual environment at grammar schools. In fact, it's much the opposite. As much as it is the teachers job to encourage students to learn, the student's attitude will take them much further.
Why should a child born with a higher IQ, have the opportunity to have a better funded education?
Original post by niteninja1
To all the people arguing having a separate school for intelligent students is wrong. Is it wrong that "special" needs students usually go to a separate school
Are you honestly trying to compare a group of people which have complex and often severe mental, emotional, social and/or physical needs with a group of people that score slightly better than others on a test?*
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
I'm sure that peer pressure and the anti-aspiration, anti-intellectual, anti-studying culture in many state schools can have this negative effect, but then surely it is more important to improve things in these state schools, and hence for the vast majority, than it is to make sure the top 10% don't get dragged down? Wouldn't pretty much anyone do better somewhere more academically rigorous?
Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
Also, to be honest the state of GCSEs (at least before the overhaul-I cannot speak for them right now) is such that one hardly needs to be a hard worker, if they are academically "gifted". I went to a pretty poor comprehensive school (bottom 25% in Wales); I had a friend, a very high performer in standardised tests, there who was tremendously lazy, and just crammed the night before, if that, but got 3 A*s, 5As and 2Bs IIRC. Myself I could barely work and come out with A*s and As in mocks, though admittedly I knuckled down (in a sense - I still revised far later than is generally advised) for the actual exams. So I do wonder what intelligent people are doing to significantly underperform at GCSE level. I suppose that my education was really not that bad relative to the horror stories I have heard from others in some comprehensives. Even though our school didn't have the best resources or the best statistics, the anti-studying culture was less pronounced. So perhaps that explains it.
dpnt get me wrong I didn't bomb my gcses but I didn't get any a* grades either, a large part of that was not being entered for higher papers, although for English I was
Original post by SCIENCE :D
Why should a child born with a higher IQ, have the opportunity to have a better funded education?
Having a higher IQ does not determine those who attend a grammar school! I'd put it to hard work and determination. The education really is no different to a comprehensive it's the mentality of the student as well as the teacher. (an enthusiastic teacher teaching intellectually driven students will achieve much more than the same teacher with students that do not want to obtain academic excellence).
Original post by umar39
Having a higher IQ does not determine those who attend a grammar school! I'd put it to hard work and determination. The education really is no different to a comprehensive it's the mentality of the student as well as the teacher. (an enthusiastic teacher teaching intellectually driven students will achieve much more than the same teacher with students that do not want to obtain academic excellence).
Hard working 11 hear old? Do me a favour. Do tell me how that's better than a streamed school..
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(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Bornblue
I think you'd be surprised by those who are intellectually driven....
Original post by neal95
I am going to become a corporate lawyer. I am going to succeed. I don't need a grammar school. I am only saying I could have done bette.
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There is nothing a grammar school can do that a streamed school cannot. And a streamed school doesn't leave behind less academic children to rot.
If you make it as a corporate lawyer then you couldn't have done better.
Do you have a training contract?
Original post by 1010marina
"it's about social mobility" suuuure it is
How can allowing intelligent poor students to attend good schools with high quality teachers be a bad thing?
At the moment a lot of them would have to attend poor deprived schools with poor teaching, which will clearly reduce their potential whilst the rich kids get to get good teaching at private schools.Poor students can often perform worse due to the bad behaviour often seen at poor schools, which can lead to them joining the bad behaving pupils and not working hard for their education.
Clever poor students are often held back in state schools, like my teacher once mentioned how she could form a small group who could sit the exam earlier and she had to move the exam till later as the class was not grasping the concepts(I remember factorising quadratics that my teacher had to teach again as I was the only one who could do it as I could do it in my head).
I often feel that the school system at the moment is practically useless for average/low achieving students, who forget virtually everything they learned at school.Introducing more Grammar Schools can allow those who fail the 11+ test(or equivalent) to go into schools more suitable for them were they will learn more functional skills(budgeting, basic Maths and English rather than Algebra and Trigonometry) more relevant to them.While the clever students skip all this and go onto more advanced topics like Calculus in Secondary School.
Such a system would probably help stop the dumbing down of education we have seen since new Grammar Schools were banned from being created, with new GCSEs only being sat by those in Grammar Schools with those in other schools achieving functional/vocational certificates(similar to the 1960s I believe).
I do think it is important that we allow some transition between Grammar Schools and whatever the other schools shall be called, as students shouldn't feel trapped in a particular school and should feel if they work hard they can earn the right to be moved up to Grammar School and badly behaved students in Grammar Schools can be easily expelled into the other schools so that the top quality education in these Grammar Schools isn't ruined.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by umar39
I think you'd be surprised by those who are intellectually driven....
Oh do me a favour. No 11 year old is like that.
I went to a state school and achieved 7A* at GCSE and 2A* at A Level.
I outperformed all my grammar and private school friends.
You don't need a grammar school.
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Original post by Dalek1099
How can allowing intelligent poor students to attend good schools with high quality teachers be a bad thing?
At the moment a lot of them would have to attend poor deprived schools with poor teaching, which will clearly reduce their potential whilst the rich kids get to get good teaching at private schools.Poor students can often perform worse due to the bad behaviour often seen at poor schools, which can lead to them joining the bad behaving pupils and not working hard for their education.
Clever poor students are often held back in state schools, like my teacher once mentioned how she could form a small group who could sit the exam earlier and she had to move the exam till later as the class was not grasping the concepts(I remember factorising quadratics that my teacher had to teach again as I was the only one who could do it as I could do it in my head).
I often feel that the school system at the moment is practically useless for average/low achieving students, who forget virtually everything they learned at school.Introducing more Grammar Schools can allow those who fail the 11+ test(or equivalent) to go into schools more suitable for them were they will learn more functional skills(budgeting, basic Maths and English rather than Algebra and Trigonometry) more relevant to them.While the clever students skip all this and go onto more advanced topics like Calculus in Secondary School.
Such a system would probably help stop the dumbing down of education we have seen since new Grammar Schools were banned from being created, with new GCSEs only being sat by those in Grammar Schools with those in other schools achieving functional/vocational certificates(similar to the 1960s I believe).
I do think it is important that we allow some transition between Grammar Schools and whatever the other schools shall be called, as students shouldn't feel trapped in a particular school and should feel if they work hard they can earn the right to be moved up to Grammar School and badly behaved students in Grammar Schools can be easily expelled into the other schools so that the top quality education in these Grammar Schools isn't ruined.
At the moment a lot of them would have to attend poor deprived schools with poor teaching, which will clearly reduce their potential whilst the rich kids get to get good teaching at private schools.Poor students can often perform worse due to the bad behaviour often seen at poor schools, which can lead to them joining the bad behaving pupils and not working hard for their education.
Clever poor students are often held back in state schools, like my teacher once mentioned how she could form a small group who could sit the exam earlier and she had to move the exam till later as the class was not grasping the concepts(I remember factorising quadratics that my teacher had to teach again as I was the only one who could do it as I could do it in my head).
I often feel that the school system at the moment is practically useless for average/low achieving students, who forget virtually everything they learned at school.Introducing more Grammar Schools can allow those who fail the 11+ test(or equivalent) to go into schools more suitable for them were they will learn more functional skills(budgeting, basic Maths and English rather than Algebra and Trigonometry) more relevant to them.While the clever students skip all this and go onto more advanced topics like Calculus in Secondary School.
Such a system would probably help stop the dumbing down of education we have seen since new Grammar Schools were banned from being created, with new GCSEs only being sat by those in Grammar Schools with those in other schools achieving functional/vocational certificates(similar to the 1960s I believe).
I do think it is important that we allow some transition between Grammar Schools and whatever the other schools shall be called, as students shouldn't feel trapped in a particular school and should feel if they work hard they can earn the right to be moved up to Grammar School and badly behaved students in Grammar Schools can be easily expelled into the other schools so that the top quality education in these Grammar Schools isn't ruined.
Why can't we achieve all that through streamed schools? I did.
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Original post by Bornblue
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There is nothing a grammar school can do that a streamed school cannot. And a streamed school doesn't leave behind less academic children to rot.
If you make it as a corporate lawyer then you couldn't have done better.
Do you have a training contract?
There is nothing a grammar school can do that a streamed school cannot. And a streamed school doesn't leave behind less academic children to rot.
If you make it as a corporate lawyer then you couldn't have done better.
Do you have a training contract?
I am about to enter my second year and am going to be applying for training contracts and vacation schemes this year. I have been to a number of open days and am part of social mobility programmes which will hopefully help me on the way to bagging a TC
Original post by Bornblue
Oh do me a favour. No 11 year old is like that.
I went to a state school and achieved 7A* at GCSE and 2A* at A Level.
I outperformed all my grammar and private school friends.
You don't need a grammar school.
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I went to a state school and achieved 7A* at GCSE and 2A* at A Level.
I outperformed all my grammar and private school friends.
You don't need a grammar school.
Posted from TSR Mobile
You are one individual amongst how many thousands?
It's great to hear of your academic success and I admire you for that but you simply can't state that grammar schools are similar to state schools in all aspects of school life because that is simply not true. There are many reasons that I have collated from my experience at a grammar school (which of course may not be similar to all grammar school students) which is reasonably sound proof to disprove your point that 'You don't need a grammar school' (both academically and in extra-curricular terms)
Original post by neal95
I am about to enter my second year and am going to be applying for training contracts and vacation schemes this year. I have been to a number of open days and am part of social mobility programmes which will hopefully help me on the way to bagging a TC
Doesn't look like a state education has failed you at all given that you're at a RG uni and going to be a corporate lawyer.
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Original post by umar39
You are one individual amongst how many thousands?
It's great to hear of your academic success and I admire you for that but you simply can't state that grammar schools are similar to state schools in all aspects of school life because that is simply not true. There are many reasons that I have collated from my experience at a grammar school (which of course may not be similar to all grammar school students) which is reasonably sound proof to disprove your point that 'You don't need a grammar school' (both academically and in extra-curricular terms)
It's great to hear of your academic success and I admire you for that but you simply can't state that grammar schools are similar to state schools in all aspects of school life because that is simply not true. There are many reasons that I have collated from my experience at a grammar school (which of course may not be similar to all grammar school students) which is reasonably sound proof to disprove your point that 'You don't need a grammar school' (both academically and in extra-curricular terms)
If you work hard enough you can succeed whichever school you are at. Grammar schools are not the magic solution people pretend they are. Well funded structured streamed schools are the answer. They push the brightest students on while supporting the less academic. They also allow for late bloomers and to cater to your needs for each subject.
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Original post by Bornblue
A good Grammar School should also use streaming I think so that the top set are even more talented than a top set in a State School would be.There is a wide range of ability in top sets at State Schools often from top A*-B and their can often be bad behaviour from students who aren't that bothered with performing well.
When I was talking about my experiences I was talking about the top set in Mathematics, with my teacher even suggesting she could take some of us and teach us to sit the exam early thats how big the difference can be in top sets particularly in State Schools.
I had a good experience in Further Maths at school though which was taken by the very best at Mathematics but State Schools can't do this for all subjects as they couldn't afford to hire so many teachers for just 8 students but at a Grammar School these classes would be larger whilst also including incredibly able students unlike State Schools.
You also have the issues of streaming not being as effective when it comes to Y10-Y11 when students have chosen their options and so classes are smaller and sometimes they are mixed ability or the top set would consist of mainly second set people(they tended to be the worst behaved people in the school I think cleverish students who couldn't be bothered with learning, the behaviour in my Geography class which consisted of mainly these people was utterly atrocious with the teacher barely able to talk without getting interrupted and a students parents did complain).
In my Science classes the teaching was often very poor as they were mixed ability as I didn't choose triple so I had to work very hard to achieve good grades, I still think I was right not to choose triple as that would have been too much work.At my School triple science was an option like any other and some not that clever students did triple at other schools though I think they make clever students to do it and other students have to not do it.
Original post by Bornblue
If you work hard enough you can succeed whichever school you are at. Grammar schools are not the magic solution people pretend they are. Well funded structured streamed schools are the answer. They push the brightest students on while supporting the less academic. They also allow for late bloomers and to cater to your needs for each subject.
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That's why grammar schools filter out the weaker candidates so that the remainder are all on a fairly level platform. Grammar schools cater for individual needs also (Grammar Schools aren't just bigoted, middle-class exam factories you know!
)Although I do agree with your first statement.
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