Should trans people be allowed to receive free reassignment surgery on the NHS?
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Original post by Ezme39
Hormones can delay puberty and give the child time to decide. Pre-puberty, suicide rates are lower as the person has not been forced to grow into a body that they do not identify with.
This causes no long term damage to the person, and normal puberty begins if they choose to stop taking the hormones.
It gives them time to decide.
Surgery is not usually, if ever, an option for someone pre-puberty- and the hormones are not transitional, as they have not actually developed the body of their gender.
I studied this with someone who works for a prominent trans charity, and he was massively in favour of letting children delay their puberty if they strongly believed that they were trans.
This causes no long term damage to the person, and normal puberty begins if they choose to stop taking the hormones.
It gives them time to decide.
Surgery is not usually, if ever, an option for someone pre-puberty- and the hormones are not transitional, as they have not actually developed the body of their gender.
I studied this with someone who works for a prominent trans charity, and he was massively in favour of letting children delay their puberty if they strongly believed that they were trans.
That's interesting, because its the exact opposite of what I was expecting. Do you have any links?
I think it's entirely normal to go through a questioning phase during puberty when you're just a soup of hormones - I started my periods quite early and so everything was pretty settled by 12/13 ... But then I developed PCOS and now I've naturally got high levels of testosterone and the male hormones, hirsutism, and I did go through a phase of wondering whether I was really meant to be male or female (or lesbian). A few years later and I'm quite content the way I am. But puberty itself was a wild time for me when everything changed... And then kept changing for my body. But it did settle down and I'm grateful for that - so I've got to say I think you should definitely go through puberty before making any huge, life altering decisions. Your body changes, you change, your attitudes change... I'm not sure if any child is ready to deal with that.
On the other hand you can argue that if a child has always felt that way (before puberty) then maybe it's better off that way... Not sure.. if you're not old enough to give consent to sex I can't see a child being old enough to know what gender they want to be! Difficult
Anyhoo. Linkappreciated if you've got it ^^
Original post by cherryred90s
Opting to not have chemotherapy after a cancer diagnosis is asking for a death sentence. There is no other way to cure cancer.
That is the most stupid statement i have read so far this year and there is heavy competition.
you do know a great number of cancers are chemo resistant right? Not to mention i cant blame a single person for not wanting it, it is a truly horrifying treatment that is little different than being pumped full of poison.
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Except that people LITERALLY KILL THEMSELVES because they are unable to transition.
and people literally kill them selves because they like to drink too much, got dumped, got fired, are just miserable, are morons etc. etc. what is your point?
Original post by zippyRN
the discredited options including the hateful 'conversion therapy ' you mean
shame that the real healthcare professional don;t agree with you
all the discredited and disproved treatments you mean , i think you need to do some research before spouting the guff you are spouting
are you a ' gender critical radical feminist' by any chance ? as that is the discredited male bovine excrement they trot out ...
shame that the real healthcare professional don;t agree with you
all the discredited and disproved treatments you mean , i think you need to do some research before spouting the guff you are spouting
are you a ' gender critical radical feminist' by any chance ? as that is the discredited male bovine excrement they trot out ...
Never heard of conversion therapy.
Healthcare professionals disagree with my acceptance that transition surgery can have a positive impact on a trans-gender person's happiness and that gender-dysphoria can be severely detrimental to the person's happiness?
And healthcare professionals actually believe that they are not deluded? That they are somehow in fact the gender they identify as?
They actually don't believe it is a disorder?
They actually think that a man who thinks they are a woman is completely fine and that there is nothing wrong with them?
Show me the evidence, I will be very interested to read it!
What has been discredited? What has been disproved? I am not talking about 'discredited' 'disproved' treatments. What is the point in treating someone with something that has been properly discredited? I am saying alternative treatments to gender re-assignment surgery should be researched and the SJW PC brigade shouldn't fight tooth and nail to block it. Strawmen, strawmen everywhere!
Nope, not a feminist. But my logic is sound and all you can do is get salty and call it "Bovine excrement". Funny.
(edited 7 years ago)
Here is a very good article people: http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/116302382484/why-is-a-transgender-person-not-considered-to
I know to us who aren't transgender it might seem weird, but you aren't in their shoes, so you don't know how it feels. We are lucky we don't feel like that.
Should we have it on the NHS? Yes. If the problem isn't sorted, you've all heard about the mental health implications, so I won't go into it.
I know to us who aren't transgender it might seem weird, but you aren't in their shoes, so you don't know how it feels. We are lucky we don't feel like that.
Should we have it on the NHS? Yes. If the problem isn't sorted, you've all heard about the mental health implications, so I won't go into it.
The National Health Service is there for people's health. This includes immediate emergency healthcare for those in accidents or with serious illnesses, but it also includes everything else besides, right down to my anaemia which does not much else other than make me lethargic and my contraceptive to stop my period pains. Waiting lists are a thing for more expensive or specialised treatments and when we're looking at quality of life only we find longer waiting periods - my physiotherapy took almost 9 months to come through.
Trans* individuals have a health problem, whether or not you consider it to be mental or physical or a combination of both, I leave that to the experts to decide. And there is a treatment that they can have that yes costs money, but it reduces the impact of this health problem, which is exactly what it's supposed to do.
We budget these things. Trans* people having surgery is a different part of the budget to cancer treatments or IVF, and when you think about what the cost of this surgery would pay for elsewhere it isn't much at all, and probably wouldn't save lives significantly (someone posted some figures above). But we can't just look at everything as a cost-benefit analysis - this is someone's life. While we have to look at where we can save money as healthcare is not unlimited for free, we don't cut entire sections of healthcare and deprive entire groups of people the treatment for their health problem because we don't personally agree with it.
There may be other ways to treat this particular health issue that isn't surgery (some just have hormones and not surgery), but those things will be offered and often tried first, will have shorter waiting lists etc. in the same way we try to have people use contraceptives rather than abortions or giving birth, and we look to change the lifestyle of smokers or drinkers or those who are overweight, we would look to see if anything else can be done but while the evidence suggests that the most effective treatment is there, why are we depriving people of it?
To the people saying "You can't cure schizophrenia with surgery", no, you can't, at least not to my (I'll admit, not complete) knowledge. But if we found that there was a surgical option that had little negative effects and vastly improved quality of life, you'd be saying "Why are we keeping giving them antipsychotics and dealing with side effects and relapses when that surgery is available?", not "But if they're delusional they should just get over it and take a pill, not expect me to pay for their surgery at the expense of people who have cancer".
Trans* individuals have a health problem, whether or not you consider it to be mental or physical or a combination of both, I leave that to the experts to decide. And there is a treatment that they can have that yes costs money, but it reduces the impact of this health problem, which is exactly what it's supposed to do.
We budget these things. Trans* people having surgery is a different part of the budget to cancer treatments or IVF, and when you think about what the cost of this surgery would pay for elsewhere it isn't much at all, and probably wouldn't save lives significantly (someone posted some figures above). But we can't just look at everything as a cost-benefit analysis - this is someone's life. While we have to look at where we can save money as healthcare is not unlimited for free, we don't cut entire sections of healthcare and deprive entire groups of people the treatment for their health problem because we don't personally agree with it.
There may be other ways to treat this particular health issue that isn't surgery (some just have hormones and not surgery), but those things will be offered and often tried first, will have shorter waiting lists etc. in the same way we try to have people use contraceptives rather than abortions or giving birth, and we look to change the lifestyle of smokers or drinkers or those who are overweight, we would look to see if anything else can be done but while the evidence suggests that the most effective treatment is there, why are we depriving people of it?
To the people saying "You can't cure schizophrenia with surgery", no, you can't, at least not to my (I'll admit, not complete) knowledge. But if we found that there was a surgical option that had little negative effects and vastly improved quality of life, you'd be saying "Why are we keeping giving them antipsychotics and dealing with side effects and relapses when that surgery is available?", not "But if they're delusional they should just get over it and take a pill, not expect me to pay for their surgery at the expense of people who have cancer".
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Except that people LITERALLY KILL THEMSELVES because they are unable to transition.
The suicide rate after transitional surgery is also high.
So thats non-argument.
@minimarshmallow
What about the people who are depressed because of their body image? (tiny breats, overweight etc). I assume you would support NHS funding for the respective operations as well.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by dingleberry jam
Do bears have barbed penises?
that is for bear™ to know & you to find out
Original post by TiernanW
Here is a very good article people: http://gcnjustin.tumblr.com/post/116302382484/why-is-a-transgender-person-not-considered-to
I know to us who aren't transgender it might seem weird, but you aren't in their shoes, so you don't know how it feels. We are lucky we don't feel like that.
Should we have it on the NHS? Yes. If the problem isn't sorted, you've all heard about the mental health implications, so I won't go into it.
I know to us who aren't transgender it might seem weird, but you aren't in their shoes, so you don't know how it feels. We are lucky we don't feel like that.
Should we have it on the NHS? Yes. If the problem isn't sorted, you've all heard about the mental health implications, so I won't go into it.
I think you've found a bit of a gem among the turds of Tumblr, here. Very reasonable and well-thought out response.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by PQ
•
A study from Belgium in 2006 found that trans people’s rates of suicide attempts dropped from 29.3% before surgery to 5.1% after.
•
Another study of 50 trans women who received genital surgery found that their physical and mental health was not significantly different from samples of cis women.
•
A 2013 study of 433 trans people in Canada found that 27% of those who hadn’t begun transitioning had attempted suicide in the past year, but this dropped to 1% for those who were finished transitioning.
•
And a 2010 meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that 78% of trans people showed an improvement in psychiatric symptoms after transitioning, with a level of psychological functioning similar to the general population and greater than that of untreated trans people.
This doesn't at all explain why people still commit suicide post transition
Original post by Napp
That is the most stupid statement i have read so far this year and there is heavy competition.
you do know a great number of cancers are chemo resistant right? Not to mention i cant blame a single person for not wanting it, it is a truly horrifying treatment that is little different than being pumped full of poison.
you do know a great number of cancers are chemo resistant right? Not to mention i cant blame a single person for not wanting it, it is a truly horrifying treatment that is little different than being pumped full of poison.
If they don't have chemo, then they have other physical treatment. My point is that cancer is not psychological and can only be cured biologically, and if someone refuses this biological treatment, they can't be helped. How is that stupid to say?
I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
Funny that you call it poison yet it saves thousands of lives
Original post by cherryred90s
This doesn't at all explain why people still commit suicide post transition
Because cis people also commit suicide - dysphoria isn't the only reason for suicide
Because trans people even post transition face discrimination and bigotry and hatred
Because transphobia in mental health care is common and so trans people seeking help for depression or other mental illness unrelated to their transition are often denied care (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/07/09/feature-the-dangers-of-trans-broken-arm-syndrome/ )
What level of suicide rate among post-transition people would you accept?
Original post by cherryred90s
If they don't have chemo, then they have other physical treatment. My point is that cancer is not psychological and can only be cured biologically, and if someone refuses this biological treatment, they can't be helped. How is that stupid to say?
I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
Actually no. One of my family members took so many treatments that made her worse to the point where it killed her so please don't tell me if a cancer patient refuses furthur treatment they'll die.
Original post by cherryred90s
If they don't have chemo, then they have other physical treatment. My point is that cancer is not psychological and can only be cured biologically, and if someone refuses this biological treatment, they can't be helped. How is that stupid to say?
I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
Funny that you call it poison yet it saves thousands of lives
I do know that people refuse further treatment if their cancer returned or they've been given a terminal diagnosis.
Funny that you call it poison yet it saves thousands of lives
It's stupid to say the first thing you said which solely related to chemo and made no mention as to surgery, radio therapy etc.
No it's not especially funny, if you actually knew what drugs are used in Chemo you'd know that calling it poison is about as accurate a description as possible. I never once said nor implied it doesn't save lives, don't make up ********.
No - and not on the NHS. Like others have said, they are a tiny portion of the general population and it is unfair to have the state spend tonnes of money on surgery for a mentally deluded person. A Swedish study has shown that the rate of suicide is still very high for those after "the op" when compared to the general population. So clearly, surgery isn't the answer, these people need help and support of a psychological manner. And the money being spent on the gender reassignment surgery is a huge waste, which could be better spent on mental health provisions for the country. In the case that one is adamant on the surgery (after therapy and after seeing mental health professionals, I'm talking at least 2 years of it), then they can pay for it themselves.
The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
Original post by SmallTownGirl
Multiple people in this thread have talked about cancer as a comparison for NHS funding. I was continuing the comparison. That funding cancer treatment is being used as a reason why trans people shouldn't be allowed hormones and surgeries on the NHS but people with cancer still CHOOSE to receive treatment. Also, many people say that other cosmetic surgeries aren't on the NHS but if a cis woman has a mastectomy due to breast cancer she's offered implants. Sometimes the NHS will even do it all in the same operation.
Also, I'm trans so if you're cis then you have absolutely no business telling me what is and isn't transphobic.
Oh, and as someone who is both mentally ill and trans: most of the rhetoric based on whether or not being trans is a mental illness is incredibly saneist because it relies on the idea that it's bad and wrong to be mentally ill and that mentally ill people shouldn't be able to make decisions about our bodies and our lives because we're worth less than people who don't have mental illnesses and that **** needs to stop.
Also, I'm trans so if you're cis then you have absolutely no business telling me what is and isn't transphobic.
Oh, and as someone who is both mentally ill and trans: most of the rhetoric based on whether or not being trans is a mental illness is incredibly saneist because it relies on the idea that it's bad and wrong to be mentally ill and that mentally ill people shouldn't be able to make decisions about our bodies and our lives because we're worth less than people who don't have mental illnesses and that **** needs to stop.
Please tell me that was a joke?Original post by Electrospective
No - and not on the NHS. Like others have said, they are a tiny portion of the general population and it is unfair to have the state spend tonnes of money on surgery for a mentally deluded person. A Swedish study has shown that the rate of suicide is still very high for those after "the op" when compared to the general population. So clearly, surgery isn't the answer, these people need help and support of a psychological manner. And the money being spent on the gender reassignment surgery is a huge waste, which could be better spent on mental health provisions for the country. In the case that one is adamant on the surgery (after therapy and after seeing mental health professionals, I'm talking at least 2 years of it), then they can pay for it themselves.
The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
From that study
"the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per seincreases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. "
Would you argue that treatment should be withdrawn from patients with bipolar or schizophrenia?
It goes on to say
"Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment, and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome."
As I posted above - there are a LOT of more recent studies that show efficacy of transition as a treatment pathway for trans people. Have a read of http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/paul-mchugh-is-wrong-transitioning-is-effective-gender-analysis-10/
Original post by Galaxie501
The suicide rate after transitional surgery is also high.
So thats non-argument.
@minimarshmallow
What about the people who are depressed because of their body image? (tiny breats, overweight etc). I assume you would support NHS funding for the respective operations as well.
So thats non-argument.
@minimarshmallow
What about the people who are depressed because of their body image? (tiny breats, overweight etc). I assume you would support NHS funding for the respective operations as well.
Trans people sometimes attempt (and complete) suicide after they have had bottom surgery (which is what people talk about when they talk about 'the surgery') and are in a body that they are happy with (not all trans people want to transition medically in the same way or at all - and all choices are legitimate) for many reasons. Because they've been rejected by family or friends after coming out as trans. Because they experience transphobic abuse in their lives. Because they struggle to find employment (rates of unemployment for trans people are ridiculously high due to discrimination). Because mental health professional are awful at treating trans patients for any mental illness. And because trans people are people and people sometimes kill themselves.
Don't blame trans people for societies transphobia.
Also, I have depression and severe body image issues due to an eating disorder. I'm also trans. Gender dysphoria is very different from depression.
Original post by PQ
From that study
"the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per seincreases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. "
Would you argue that treatment should be withdrawn from patients with bipolar or schizophrenia?
It goes on to say
"Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment, and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome."
As I posted above - there are a LOT of more recent studies that show efficacy of transition as a treatment pathway for trans people. Have a read of http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/paul-mchugh-is-wrong-transitioning-is-effective-gender-analysis-10/
"the current study is only informative with respect to transsexuals persons health after sex reassignment; no inferences can be drawn as to the effectiveness of sex reassignment as a treatment for transsexualism. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per seincreases morbidity and mortality. Things might have been even worse without sex reassignment. As an analogy, similar studies have found increased somatic morbidity, suicide rate, and overall mortality for patients treated for bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. "
Would you argue that treatment should be withdrawn from patients with bipolar or schizophrenia?
It goes on to say
"Other facets to consider are first that this study reflects the outcome of psychiatric and somatic treatment for transsexualism provided in Sweden during the 1970s and 1980s. Since then, treatment has evolved with improved sex reassignment surgery, refined hormonal treatment, and more attention to psychosocial care that might have improved the outcome."
As I posted above - there are a LOT of more recent studies that show efficacy of transition as a treatment pathway for trans people. Have a read of http://genderanalysis.net/2015/09/paul-mchugh-is-wrong-transitioning-is-effective-gender-analysis-10/
Ohh fair enough. I'll check out that study.
Well not all treatment, just the antipsychotics. The only reason antipsychotics are so widely used is that it shuts people up at the right doses, and it has been shown to (oh **** what's the word? lol) cause your cognition to be worse. It does have a not so good effect on the brain after long term use, not to mention the side-effects, diabetes, tremors, weight gain, etc. They are the worst things to be on, glad I'm off it.
Also the link I gave you may reflect treatment provided in the 70s and 80s, but they did follow up transsexuals for 30 years.
Plus the link you said:
Most of the surgically treated patients described themselves as “satisfied” by the results".
Are there any numbers to back this up? Like no. of suicides, no. of unemployed, etc.? And are they satisfied right after the surgery, 1 year later, 5 years later or even 15 years later?
•
A study from Belgium in 2006 found that trans people’s rates of suicide attempts dropped from 29.3% before surgery to 5.1% after.
•
Another study of 50 trans women who received genital surgery found that their physical and mental health was not significantly different from samples of cis women.
•
A 2013 study of 433 trans people in Canada found that 27% of those who hadn’t begun transitioning had attempted suicide in the past year, but this dropped to 1% for those who were finished transitioning.
"Trans PULSE Project (n=433), we estimated that suicidal thoughts were experienced by 36% of trans Ontarians over the past year, and that 10% attempted suicide during that time. Moreover, we documented that youth and those experiencing transphobia and lack of support are at heightened risk. Suicidality varied greatly by medical transition status, with those who were planning to transition sex, but who had not yet begun, being most vulnerable."
Doesn't really show the effectiveness of the actual process of transitioning. These poor people probably think transition is the answer for them, which could explain why many are suicidal before hand, plus the dysphoria itself ofc.
•
And a 2010 meta-analysis of 28 studies showed that 78% of trans people showed animprovement in psychiatric symptoms after transitioning, with a level of psychological functioning similar to the general population and greater than that of untreated trans people.
The results: "....All the studies were observational and most lacked controls."
The conclusion: "Very low quality evidence suggests that sex reassignment that includes hormonal interventions in individuals with GID likely improves gender dysphoria, psychological functioning and comorbidities, sexual function and overall quality of life."
Sooo.....
I think the best kind of study would directly compare two large groups of transgenders. Ones that have received surgery and the other which has received an alternative treatment option.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by cherryred90s
Mental health problems should be treated. Gender reassignment surgery is purely physical.
might help if you actually understood the pathway in the NHS and the wider international evidence and consensus in the WPATH guidelines ...
Original post by tanyapotter
Sounds like you think the solution is to make people stop being trans and to help them to "accept" the gender they were born with... which is ominously similar to conversion therapy (an extremely transphobic and unethical practice which is illegal in many countries). Gender reassignment surgery is a way to treat gender dysphoria - what don't you understand about that?
1. utter ignorance
2. overt or covert transphobia / homophobia ( as many people seem to wish to confuse gender identity and sexuality)
3. believing the bigotry of the religious right and /or the 'gender critical radical feminists'
4. the belief that anything other than cisnormative heterosexuality is a choice
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