The Student Room Group

Should trans people be allowed to receive free reassignment surgery on the NHS?

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Original post by Ezme39
Hormones can delay puberty and give the child time to decide. Pre-puberty, suicide rates are lower as the person has not been forced to grow into a body that they do not identify with.
This causes no long term damage to the person, and normal puberty begins if they choose to stop taking the hormones.
It gives them time to decide.
Surgery is not usually, if ever, an option for someone pre-puberty- and the hormones are not transitional, as they have not actually developed the body of their gender.
I studied this with someone who works for a prominent trans charity, and he was massively in favour of letting children delay their puberty if they strongly believed that they were trans.


as it stands the treatment offered to under 16s is mainly psychological support, however at tanner stage II drug therapy to delay puberty may be considered - cross sex hormones aren;t started until 16 and use the same criteria as adult patients to begin them - including diagnosis, confirmation of diagnosis , RLE and so on ...
Original post by Ezme39
A very good question, and actually also a debated point.
If we're considering the same level of negative outcomes, and no alternative counselling were appropriate or indicated by evidence - I wonder whether this mental distress would warrant surgery.


breast asymmetry correction can be provided on the NHS if the relevant clinicla criteria are met
Original post by Electrospective
I think the best kind of study would directly compare two large groups of transgenders. Ones that have received surgery and the other which has received an alternative treatment option.


That would be highly unethical (and fwiw "transgenders" is not a polite way to refer to trans people - trans and transgender is a verb not a noun, the equivalent would be to refer to "blacks" or "gays" or "disableds"). Especially to withhold treatment from "large numbers" of trans people considering there are very small numbers undergoing transition at any point.

WPATH has been collating evidence and efficacy of treatment since 1979 to inform it's Standards of Care guidelines. Their entire reason for existing is to find the safest and most effective treatments for trans people. https://amo_hub_content.s3.amazonaws.com/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care,%20V7%20Full%20Book.pdf

Which "alternative treatment option" would you advocate?
Original post by biglad2k16
I know it already exists on the Nhs but is it appropriate or is it a waste of money?


No. People complaining that it makes them depressed should remember that many other male/ females get depressed about the way they look, yet they're not entitled to free surgery?
Original post by Josb
The cost for male to female reassignment is $7,000 to $24,000. The cost for female to male reassignment can exceed $50,000.

<snip>
The total cost of gender reassignments is ridiculous compared to cancer treatments.


ridiculously TINY

The entire NHS budget for the GICs and GRS is £20 something million Pa out of a £100 billion budget

Admittedly some of the costs will be hidden in general mental health services ( where additional psychological support is beign provided), sexual health and in GP prescribing ( cross sex horomones , blockers, endocrinology tests to support these) but to suggest that Gender services are draining the NHS is a utter joke

More money could be saved by an actual decimation ( per roman meaning) of the pointless middle managers and alleged clinical (mainly Nurses by origianl job) Leaders ... and services would be improved becasue of the lack of pointless questions beign asked distracting from the core mission.
Original post by PQ
That would be highly unethical (and fwiw "transgenders" is not a polite way to refer to trans people - trans and transgender is a verb not a noun, the equivalent would be to refer to "blacks" or "gays" or "disableds":wink:. Especially to withhold treatment from "large numbers" of trans people considering there are very small numbers undergoing transition at any point.

WPATH has been collating evidence and efficacy of treatment since 1979 to inform it's Standards of Care guidelines. Their entire reason for existing is to find the safest and most effective treatments for trans people. https://amo_hub_content.s3.amazonaws.com/Association140/files/Standards%20of%20Care,%20V7%20Full%20Book.pdf

Which "alternative treatment option" would you advocate?


I'm not saying no treatment. An alternative to surgery, perhaps more therapy + family therapy. (I mean people want to remove the need for therapy before surgery , which is just :colonhash: ) Treatment for a possible underlying issue; maybe they are intersex, or have another mental health issue? I think some research needs to be done ultimately, to come up with alternatives to surgery. Also, side note: I think it should be noted that men who "feel like a woman" for example, might want to transition to female because feminine men aren't exactly accepted with open arms, so I guess dresses, make-up, etc. =/= make you a woman is what I'm trying to say + society should be more tolerant of effeminate men.

I'm no doctor, I advocate nothing. I'm just saying the current system needs to be changed.

We shouldn't be enforcing delusions and making it okay for children to think that it's okay to be trans.

Spoiler

(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Electrospective
I'm not saying no treatment. An alternative to surgery, perhaps more therapy + family therapy. (I mean people want to remove the need for therapy before surgery , which is just :colonhash: ) Treatment for a possible underlying issue; maybe they are intersex, or have another mental health issue? I think some research needs to be done ultimately, to come up with alternatives to surgery. Also, side note: I think it should be noted that men who "feel like a woman" for example, might want to transition to female because feminine men aren't exactly accepted with open arms, so I guess dresses, make-up, etc. =/= make you a woman is what I'm trying to say + society should be more tolerant of effeminate men.

I'm no doctor, I advocate nothing. I'm just saying the current system needs to be changed.


To be frank it sounds like you don't really understand what the current system is.
Original post by TimmonaPortella
Don't people continue to kill themselves at astonishingly high rates afterwards?


NO

you also have to consider that even post transition some transpeople recieve significant abuse, discrimination and bullying / violence from the idiot faction
Original post by PQ
To be frank it sounds like you don't really understand what the current system is.


I don't? Just because I disagree with it, I must not know it? :rolleyes:
Original post by Electrospective
I don't? Just because I disagree with it, I must not know it? :rolleyes:


Everything you're suggesting "as an alternative" is already part of the WPATH SOC and NHS guidelines for trans people.

So yes it does sound like you don't understand what currently happens when you suggest the current process as "an alternative" :rolleyes:
Original post by Electrospective
No - and not on the NHS. Like others have said, they are a tiny portion of the general population and it is unfair to have the state spend tonnes of money on surgery for a mentally deluded person. A Swedish study has shown that the rate of suicide is still very high for those after "the op" when compared to the general population. So clearly, surgery isn't the answer, these people need help and support of a psychological manner. And the money being spent on the gender reassignment surgery is a huge waste, which could be better spent on mental health provisions for the country. In the case that one is adamant on the surgery (after therapy and after seeing mental health professionals, I'm talking at least 2 years of it), then they can pay for it themselves.

The aforementioned study: http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885


An interestingly transphobic reading of that paper , but that does seem to be common factor in those who wish to erase trans people from society

a paper published 5 years ago using data from at it;s newest 13 years ago and going back over 50 years ...

I also think you need to understand the pathway , and the post transition factors at play

also the overall budget for GICs and GRS is change down the back of the sofa ( £22 million ish out of a £100 billion) ... also the implication that somehow beigntrans can be cured by psychological therapies sounds rather like the discredited 'conversion therapy' much beloved the religious right .
Original post by PQ
Everything you're suggesting "as an alternative" is already part of the WPATH SOC and NHS guidelines for trans people.

So yes it does sound like you don't understand what currently happens when you suggest the current process as "an alternative" :rolleyes:


That's why I said research needs to be done to find (new, effective and safe) alternatives. :rolleyes:

Spoiler

Original post by Electrospective
<snip>

I think the best kind of study would directly compare two large groups of transgenders. Ones that have received surgery and the other which has received an alternative treatment option.


for someone who asserts to be close to the issue interesting use of slur words there ...
Original post by zippyRN
An interestingly transphobic reading of that paper , but that does seem to be common factor in those who wish to erase trans people from society

a paper published 5 years ago using data from at it;s newest 13 years ago and going back over 50 years ...

I also think you need to understand the pathway , and the post transition factors at play

also the overall budget for GICs and GRS is change down the back of the sofa ( £22 million ish out of a £100 billion) ... also the implication that somehow beigntrans can be cured by psychological therapies sounds rather like the discredited 'conversion therapy' much beloved the religious right .


Because anyone who disagrees with SRS is transphobic. :rolleyes:

Considering they followed the subjects for 30 years, I'm not sure if the study could've been done much later :colonhash:

Money better spent elsewhere if you ask me.
Original post by zippyRN
for someone who asserts to be close to the issue interesting use of slur words there ...


Transgenders is a slur? Wow okay. (Plus some transgenders call themselves trannies, what now? )
And the way I've used it wasn't in a purposefully rude way, I'm not just insulting transgenders.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Electrospective
Because anyone who disagrees with SRS is transphobic. :rolleyes:

Considering they followed the subjects for 30 years, I'm not sure if the study could've been done much later :colonhash:

Money better spent elsewhere if you ask me.


- you are relying on 50 year old data

- you seem to assume that GRS is a magic bullet when it isn;t

- you are demonstrating your own ignorance of the pathway
Original post by PQ
Because cis people also commit suicide - dysphoria isn't the only reason for suicide

Because trans people even post transition face discrimination and bigotry and hatred

Because transphobia in mental health care is common and so trans people seeking help for depression or other mental illness unrelated to their transition are often denied care (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2015/07/09/feature-the-dangers-of-trans-broken-arm-syndrome/ )

What level of suicide rate among post-transition people would you accept?


Exactly, this is what I have been saying. The physical surgery isn't the sole solution. There are far more obstacles to be addressed in order to live a happy life
Original post by saraxh
Actually no. One of my family members took so many treatments that made her worse to the point where it killed her so please don't tell me if a cancer patient refuses furthur treatment they'll die.


Ah okay and if she didn't take any treatment at all, you think she would've been better off?
Original post by Napp
It's stupid to say the first thing you said which solely related to chemo and made no mention as to surgery, radio therapy etc.

No it's not especially funny, if you actually knew what drugs are used in Chemo you'd know that calling it poison is about as accurate a description as possible. I never once said nor implied it doesn't save lives, don't make up ********.


Can't possibly be comparable to poison if it makes you better..
Original post by zippyRN
might help if you actually understood the pathway in the NHS and the wider international evidence and consensus in the WPATH guidelines ...


I know enough to formulate an opinion that nobody asked you to agree with.

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