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Why does God allow so much suffering?

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Reply 40
Original post by FightToWin
But that's not allowing something to happen. That's giving someone the choice of doing good or bad, and that someone messing up and doing the wrong thing.


It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
-The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by RobML
It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
-The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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But if God knows our future actions, how does that mean we have no choice?
Reply 42
Original post by champ_mc99
But if God knows our future actions, how does that mean we have no choice?


Well, God creating everything is what's more important there.
Depends on what exact definition of choice you have in mind anyway.

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Solipsism if you wanna bring it to the extreme.........
You yourself are god so you allow all this suffering to occur.
Original post by RobML
Well, God creating everything is what's more important there.
Depends on what exact definition of choice you have in mind anyway.

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He could have created us neutral.

Anyway how does our lack of choice remove his title of omnibenevolence?
Reply 45
Original post by champ_mc99
He could have created us neutral.

Anyway how does our lack of choice remove his title of omnibenevolence?


If you suggest suffering exists because we have the choice to act bad, but those choices were predetermined by God, then you're back to square one again.
And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.

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Original post by RobML
If you suggest suffering exists because we have the choice to act bad, but those choices were predetermined by God, then you're back to square one again.
And that's not even getting into the issue of suffering that doesn't originate from the action of humans.

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Idrc what kind of suffering it is or where it comes from. Why does the presence of suffering remove the title?
Reply 47
Original post by champ_mc99
Idrc what kind of suffering it is or where it comes from. Why does the presence of suffering remove the title?


God creates suffering therefore God is not omnibenevolent. It's pretty simple.

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Original post by RobML
God creates suffering therefore God is not omnibenevolent. It's pretty simple.

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What if the suffering has reasons behind it? If God is all-good then every action he does must outclass the goodness of every alternative action he could do right?

So as an analogy when Jesus suffered and died it could be a more good action of letting his son die on the cross than saving him becuase of how it brings salvation and removes sin etc.
Reply 49
Original post by champ_mc99
What if the suffering has reasons behind it? If God is all-good then every action he does must outclass the goodness of every alternative action he could do right?


But God has the ability to elimate all suffering and still provide whatever goodness you may be hinting at here. Yet God does not.
Original post by RobML
But God has the ability to elimate all suffering and still provide whatever goodness you may be hinting at here. Yet God does not.


Yeah sure. But what if that action isn't "good"? Saving Jesus might be considered bad because letting him die shows you how much he loves you. If he's saved he can't dien for you and hence show his love.

If one guy is in hell becuase he misbehaved and then God decides to end his suffering early and submit him into heavan, what if that action is considered bad because God did not carry out justice?
Reply 51
Original post by champ_mc99
Yeah sure. But what if that action isn't "good"? Saving Jesus might be considered bad because letting him die shows you how much he loves you. If he's saved he can't dien for you and hence show his love.

If one guy is in hell becuase he misbehaved and then God decides to end his suffering early and submit him into heavan, what if that action is considered bad because God did not carry out justice?


You're straying into morality now which is an entirely different world to suffering and pleasure. I'm talking about bad = suffering and good = non-suffering/pleasure.
Original post by RobML
You're straying into morality now which is an entirely different world to suffering and pleasure. I'm talking about bad = suffering and good = non-suffering/pleasure.


Erm ok. Omni-benevolent means all-good so I don't really see how you can discuss this without discussing morality. Basically the way I see it, suffering can be good in God's objective sight.
Reply 53
Original post by champ_mc99
Erm ok. Omni-benevolent means all-good so I don't really see how you can discuss this without discussing morality.]Basically the way I see it, suffering can be good in God's objective sight


Yeah kind of falling asleep and got lost there.

anyway

You say suffering can be good, which still means there is bad suffering. God still allows bad things to happen.
The only defense against that I can conceive of is that all suffering is good, and by extension everything is good and therefore there is no bad and evil. But then morality just becomes meaningless.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by RobML
It's only an illusionary choice since God would have predetermined everything.

And I think the knife analogy is pretty poor for a few reasons:
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to forsee everything his knives will be used for
-The knife maker did not create the users of the knives
-The knife maker doesn't have the ability to create knives that cannot harm people

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Whether or not something is pre-determined you still have to make the choice at some point that you're going to/ not going to do it. It could be pre-determined what you're going to have for tea on the 19th March 2020, but you still need to make that choice what you're going to have and something tells me you don't plan your meals that far ahead.

Regarding your other points:
1) He invented something for cutting things knowing full well that could (and would) be used for cutting people as well. Anything else is irrelevant.
2.) That's correct, but people still need to make the choice what to use it for.. Free will, blah blah..
3. (And this refers to the conversation you're having with Champ as well.. Let's not get you involved in two debates at once and confuse things):

There's hardly any physical objects in this world that can't be used in some way to kill or harm. I could whack someone over the head with a bible if I wanted to.

If you wanted to remove ALL suffering, there's only two options.. One is to remove all physical harm by wrapping us in cotton wool for the rest of our lives.. Oh wait that wouldn't work, you can smother people with cotton wool. So basically just remove everything physical and let us float in nothingness with no people around us in case we punch them. That sounds like worse suffering to me that what goes on in this world. So the only other option is to remove all free will to stop us doing bad things. In other words we become mindless zombies only being able to feel God pulling our strings doing what He wants us to do... Making us live a perfect life with perfect things where we don't serve a purpose, just kind of watching a movie in first person. Doing things we might not want to do.

Suffering may be bad, but I can guarantee its not anywhere near as bad as any of those two options. I think you'd agree with that.


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Original post by RobML
Yeah kind of falling asleep and got lost there.

anyway

You say suffering can be good, which still means there is bad suffering. God still allows bad things to happen.
The only defense against that I can conceive of is that all suffering is good, and by extension everything is good and therefore there is no bad and evil. But then morality just becomes meaningless.


The suffering itself isn't good per se but the reasons behind allowing it to happen can be good. Kinda like the lesser of the two evils. So morality is maintained.

As another example a man commits evil. God doesn't stop him so this man can later learn from his mistakes and become a better person. Idk this might not be the best example.
Reply 56
Original post by FightToWin
Whether or not something is pre-determined you still have to make the choice at some point that you're going to/ not going to do it. It could be pre-determined what you're going to have for tea on the 19th March 2020, but you still need to make that choice what you're going to have and something tells me you don't plan your meals that far ahead.

Regarding your other points:
1) He invented something for cutting things knowing full well that could (and would) be used for cutting people as well. Anything else is irrelevant.
2.) That's correct, but people still need to make the choice what to use it for.. Free will, blah blah..
3. (And this refers to the conversation you're having with Champ as well.. Let's not get you involved in two debates at once and confuse things):

There's hardly any physical objects in this world that can't be used in some way to kill or harm. I could whack someone over the head with a bible if I wanted to.

If you wanted to remove ALL suffering, there's only two options.. One is to remove all physical harm by wrapping us in cotton wool for the rest of our lives.. Oh wait that wouldn't work, you can smother people with cotton wool. So basically just remove everything physical and let us float in nothingness with no people around us in case we punch them. That sounds like worse suffering to me that what goes on in this world. So the only other option is to remove all free will to stop us doing bad things. In other words we become mindless zombies only being able to feel God pulling our strings doing what He wants us to do... Making us live a perfect life with perfect things where we don't serve a purpose, just kind of watching a movie in first person. Doing things we might not want to do.

Suffering may be bad, but I can guarantee its not anywhere near as bad as any of those two options. I think you'd agree with that.


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What I'm saying is that the choices we make are ultimately the doing of God, and therefore God is responsible for all our bad choices.

Original post by champ_mc99
The suffering itself isn't good per se but the reasons behind allowing it to happen can be good. Kinda like the lesser of the two evils. So morality is maintained.

As another example a man commits evil. God doesn't stop him so this man can later learn from his mistakes and become a better person. Idk this might not be the best example.


Both of you seem to be forgetting the omnipotence of God- you're still implying the existence of evil and suffering as if it's necessary for greater good, but it is only necessary if God does not have the ability to make things otherwise. In which case God is not omnipotent.
1.God isn't accountable to anyone and as he will never be punished he can do whatever.
2.There's also no-one from who he could have obtained any sort of moral code, so he might not believe that he has a duty to stop suffering.
3.How can you explain suffering to someone who has never suffered?
A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?", the professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-273C) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. What we have created is a word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colours and study the various wavelengths of each colour. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when people do not have God's love present in their heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down. The young man's name -- Albert Einstein


Of course, Abraham Lincoln taught us that "the problem with quotes on the Internet is that it is very hard to verify their source", and many people have said that this story did not, in fact, involve Einstein, and more still that it never actually happened at all, but I have left it 'as-is', albeit with a few formatting changes to make it fit better on TSR.
Reply 59
Original post by SummerStrawberry
A University professor at a well known institution of higher learning challenged his students with this question. "Did God create everything that exists?"

A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"

"God created everything?", the professor asked.

"Yes sir, he certainly did", the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything; then God created evil. And, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then we can assume God is evil."

The student became quiet and did not answer the professor's hypothetical definition. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that faith in God was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said, "May I ask you a question, Professor?"

"Of course", replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked, "Professor, does cold exist?"

"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?"

The other students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-273C) is the total absence of heat; and all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. What we have created is a word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."

The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colours and study the various wavelengths of each colour. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course, as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily examples of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist, sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when people do not have God's love present in their heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat, or the darkness that comes when there is no light."


The problem still remains. God allows their absence when they has the ability to never allow their absence, and since absence = evil, then we're back to square one with "God allows evil when they have the ability to never allow evil"

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