Muslims "in the crosshairs of bigotry"

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this is proof that the problem is extremists taking the quran and interpreting it in their own, evil way, and not Islam

this also does not condone rape anywhere

read what this passage ACTUALLY MEANS here: http://www.islamic.org.uk/I4wm/sexual.htm

it is not clear why this childish attempt at justifying slavery and sex with slaves has struck you as a valid interpretation of what the Quranic verse ACTUALLY MEANS (and even in capital letters, by Jove)

the problem is not extremists interpreting the Quran : it is both the extremists and the Quran at the same time

if the texts (Quran, ahadith etc) did not contain so many violent, hateful statements, it would not be so easy to interpret them in a violent, hateful way and to convince people so easily

yes, on the other hand - with some effort and mental gymnastics -, you can interpret away, contextualise, retranslate etc and make Islam compatible with modernity and even with democratic values, parliament, equality of all citizens etc

even much easier, you can simply ignore the violence and blatant discrimination (of women, unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals etc etc) and claim "that was then ,and now is now"

however, this is an effort for Muslims to do : I don't see why non-Muslims should take sides in this dispute, and say that either "literalists" or "reformers" are right

of course that political expediency would advise us to support the "reformers", but as far as non-Muslims are concerned, both groups are wrong : the Quran, quite simply, is not the word of God, and Muhammad was not his prophet

so, debating the exact interpretation of Quranic verses, or trying to reconstruct what Muhammad allegedly said or not, is (for non-Muslims) pointless : we leave this to Muslims, and then judge the tree (Islam) by its fruits (Islamic history, societies inspired by Islam, behaviour of Muslims etc etc)

best

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 321

alevelstresss

Original post by mariachi

it is not clear why this childish attempt at justifying slavery and sex with slaves has struck you as a valid interpretation of what the Quranic verse ACTUALLY MEANS (and even in capital letters, by Jove)

the problem is not extremists interpreting the Quran : it is both the extremists and the Quran at the same time

if the texts (Quran, ahadith etc) did not contain so many violent, hateful statements, it would not be so easy to interpret them in a violent, hateful way and to convince people so easily

yes, on the other hand - with some effort and mental gymnastics -, you can interpret away, contextualise, retranslate etc and make Islam compatible with modernity and even with democratic values, parliament, equality of all citizens etc

even much easier, you can simply ignore the violence and blatant discrimination (of women, unbelievers, apostates, homosexuals etc etc) and claim "that was then ,and now is now"

however, this is an effort for Muslims to do : I don't see why non-Muslims should take parts in this dispute, and say that either "literalists" or "reformers" are right

of course that political expediency would advise us to support the "reformers", but as far as non-Muslims are concerned, both groups are wrong : the Quran, quite simply, is not the word of God, and Muhammad was not his prophet

so, debating the exact interpretation of Quranic verses, or trying to reconstruct what Muhammad allegedly said or not, is (for non-Muslims) pointless : we leave this to Muslims, and then judge the tree (Islam) by its fruits (Islamic history, societies inspired by Islam, behaviour of Muslims etc etc)

best

You just said that the Quran condones rape.

You linked the first thing the Quran says about sex.

You embarrassed yourself and you have no idea what it means.

Reply 322

sleepysnooze

Original post by ib_hopeful

LOL i suggest you dont believe statistics that say "100% of people think X"

It's like when dictators have elections and get 100% of the votes!

Don't misuse science to perpetuate bigotry. Do you even know how to assess if a poll is reliable? Come on.

If you're so into this 'statistic', what was their sample size? Please send me a link so I can evaluate it.

I've actually already answered to this back and forth with frankie
I said "it's something like 90%" and they said "85%", to which I said "seeing as the poll was 100% for 500 muslims, I strongly doubt it's anything less than 90"
so read back what I've said on this very thread page

Reply 323

username2585877

Original post by admonit

OK. If your friends also are Arabs then it is unexplainable anomaly. :smile:

tis indeed an unexplainable anomaly

Reply 324

QE2

Original post by frankielogue

No, they don’t treat gay people differently to straight people. They just view the institution of marriage differently.

Unless they also oppose marriage between straight couples, they absolutely do treat gay people differently!

Reply 325

QE2

Original post by frankielogue

I’m trying to account for young muslims, who are generally more accepting. The figure is probably around 85% tbh

Several surveys have shown that younger Muslims often hold more conservative views than older generations, especially in the more contraversial areas.

Reply 326

username2585877

Original post by QE2

Unless they also oppose marriage between straight couples, they absolutely do treat gay people differently!

No, as in they are fine with it being legal, but personally they oppose it, as they personally think that marriage is one man and one woman. I, for example, think abortion should be legal but I personally oppose it. In day-to-day life, they treat gay people with the same respect they treat straight people with

Reply 327

username2585877

Original post by QE2

Several surveys have shown that younger Muslims often hold more conservative views than older generations, especially in the more contraversial areas.

Perhaps they do in Islamic strongholds and places where Islam runs rampant, but in the areas where there are more non-muslims then there are muslims, I’ve seen one or two anti-gay muslims.

Reply 328

mariachi

Original post by alevelstresss

You just said that the Quran condones rape.

Original post by alevelstresss

You linked the first thing the Quran says about sex.

I linked nothing at all. You linked that childish apologetics page

But , no problem, dear friend : whatever floats your boat

Original post by alevelstresss

You embarrassed yourself and you have no idea what it means.

oh, dear me... what a disgrace... I will cry

best

Reply 329

RÃªsistance

We need to drive Muslims to the sea

**** these people I don't care if they're babies, we should think about our futures and we don't have one as long as we allow these people coming here.

Reply 330

QE2

Original post by ib_hopeful

No poll would say "100% think x", unless the question was somethiung like..."As a Muslim, do you believe in the existence of Allah?" And even then, it would still be unlikely due to statistical variables built into the survey criteria.

What sample size do you consider to be sufficient to accurately represent the views of a population of 2 million, to a confidence of 95% and an margin of error of 3?

Reply 331

Vividly clear

I wonder what the people in Belgium who just escaped another crazed muslim trying to murder them with a machete yelling allah akbar have to say about this ridiculous thread.

Reply 332

QE2

Original post by alevelstresss

You just said that the Quran condones rape.

The only way that you can claim that the Quran does not condone rape is to either:
1. Reject the consensus of international law that a captive cannot give free or informed consent to sex (ie. sex with slaves or captives is always rape), or
2. Reject the universal infallibility and immutability of the Quran.

Non-Muslims take option 2.
The majority of Muslims cannot do this as they believe/are told that it is an act of kufr and would render them apostate. So they take option 1.
The measure of how far along the path to enlightenment Islam is will be the number of Muslims taking option 2.

Reply 333

QE2

Original post by frankielogue

They may not openly treat gay people differently, but personally they think that they do not deserve the same treatment as straight couples. Therefore they do treat them differently.

A racist who does not make racist comments or racist attacks is still a racist if they believe that people should be judged by their race or colour rather that personal attributes.

Reply 334

ad98

Original post by sleepysnooze

"most muslims aren't like that"? a 2011 UK poll suggested that 100% of muslims asked think homosexuality is "unacceptable" - and 75% of them thought people should be criminalised for insulting the prophet muhammad...and 50% thought gay people should be jailed. it's hard to not generalise with figures like those

you literally pulled those statistics out of your ass, dont think by you putting in dates and percentages that your argument becomes stronger - this isn't some year 9 debating club. you obviously havent met LGBTQ+ muslims because yes, they exist, and yes, they're muslim. explain how 100% of the 1.7 billion muslims think homosexuality is unacceptable and only 50% of them think gay people should be jailed. literally 0 logic.

Reply 335

ad98

Original post by AperfectBalance

In many many cases they are the one pulling the trigger

so in your opinion most attacks in the world are committed by muslims?

Reply 336

sleepysnooze

Original post by ad98

it is something like 100% - I wouldn't ever claim it is *literally* 100%
even the person who was last here arguing with me over that figure admitted that they thought it was at least 85%.

Reply 337

ad98

Original post by sleepysnooze

it is something like 100% - I wouldn't ever claim it is *literally* 100%
even the person who was last here arguing with me over that figure admitted that they thought it was at least 85%.

but you did *literally* say that. your entire argument is founded on baseless facts, therefore completely degrading your argument that the majority of muslims are intolerant close-minded bigots. if you want to have a mature and frank discussion be honest, you won't get anywhere with spewing bs.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 338

sleepysnooze

Original post by ad98

I said that's what the poll said. I never said that the poll was 100% accurate though, did I. that's why I was saying it was "something like 90%" to the other person...it was obviously *somewhat* accurate, because the sample size was at least somewhat competent for making a conclusive viewpoint.

Reply 339

alevelstresss

Original post by mariachi

did I ? where exactly ?

well, come to think of it, the Quran does condone sex with captive slave women ; who, just like minors, are not in a position to give a valid consent to sex. So, yes, this is technically rape

thanks for reminding us this interesting fact

I linked nothing at all. You linked that childish apologetics page

But , no problem, dear friend : whatever floats your boat

oh, dear me... what a disgrace... I will cry

best

You said "So you can basically rape nonbelievers" based on a passage in the Quran, which in any way you want to pretend you viewed it, means you think the Quran condones rape.

But go ahead and call me an apologist if it reinforces your crumbling argument.