I just voted for Owen Smith in the Lab leadership election
I just cast my online ballot for Owen Smith. It might be futile, Corbyn will probably go on to win anyway, but I had to try (zoom below pic, there are more paragraphs further down)
Here are my reasons;
(1) Corbyn has demonstrated a scary degree of amorality when he agreed to take £20,000 to be a television propaganda shill for the Iranian government (uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-paid-iran-press-tv-tortured-journalist-2016-6). That regime is easily one of the worst in the world, with their murder of "adulterous" women and men, homosexuals, atheists and leftists. See below an excerpt from their penal code to give you an idea of the kind of people from whom Corbyn was happy to take money to shill for (zoom below pic, more paras below);
(2) Corbyn has repeatedly offered support for terrorist murderers. Only a few years ago he didn't just call Hamas his "friends" (and then dishonestly claim he was merely being diplomatic), he went on to praise their "dedication to peace and social justice". He later had to admit, when confronted in the Home Affairs Committee with the fact Hamas called for all Jews worldwide to be killed, that they are indeed extremely anti-semitic.
(3) Corbyn has for years associated with Hamas' European proxy groups and representatives. He warmly welcomed the Hamas ally Raed Salah to the UK (Salah has spread the blood libel that Jews sacrifice gentile children and eat them in satanic ceremonies). Salah when interviewed also fondly recalled when in high school he drew a swastika on the blackboard to offend/abuse a Jewish teacher. When Theresa May tried to have this man deported from the country, Corbyn immediately leapt to his defence, helping to raise funds for his legal defence and praising him as, "a very honoured citizen" who "represents his people well" and mentioning that he (Corbyn) would be delighted to take tea with him on the terrace of parliament.
(3) He has for years associated with Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis. Corbyn participated in events with the neo-Nazi James Thring who claims "the world is run by a cabal of Jewish elders". When the Church of England moved to discipline one of its clerics, the deluded Stephen Sizer, for claiming that "the Jews did 9/11", Corbyn leapt to his defence too, writing a letter to the church authorities listing Sizer's "excellent" personal qualities. Corbyn also associated, for years, with the Holocaust denier Paul Eisen, and then lied about it last year when asked; Corbyn claimed once he found out he stopped associating with him. However, Eisen was notoriously expelled from the Palestine solidarity community in 2008, and yet in 2013 Corbyn was still involving himself in Eisen's yearly event DYR. The neo-Nazi KKK leader David Duke has also praised Corbyn for "knowing the truth" and emphatically welcomed his election as Labour leader (http://www.dailystormer.com/the-david-duke-show-on-jeremy-corbyn-and-will-the-real-scv-please-stand-up/). Why is it that neo-Nazis think Corbyn is so good?
(4) Corbyn is also an associate of the far-left fanatic Richard Seymour who said "Jewish journalist reporting on Israel-Palestine; **** him, they should cut his throat". They've moved in the same circles for years and Corbyn shared a platform with him (even though he has said he believes in no-platforming fascists and extremists... obviously he doesn't think there's anything wrong with the people mentioned above).
(5) Corbyn was a supporter of the IRA for many years. While his supporters laughably and ignorantly claim that somehow he was "ahead of his time" by "talking with the IRA", the reality is that he wasn't engaging with them to persuade them to put down their guns. He fully supported their campaign of bombings and shootings, while spurning the Labour Party's fraternal socialist party in Northern Ireland, the non-violent SDLP. When the IRA bombed the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984, murdering 5 people and coming extremely close to killing the Prime Minister, the paper Corbyn was editing published this joke, "What do you call 5 dead Tories? A good start". And in 1988 when a group of IRA terrorists, who were attacking a police station with a car bomb and machine guns, were thankfully stopped and killed, Corbyn held a minute's silence for them. It's also obnoxiously wrong to claim that he was trying to bring about peace and the UK government wasn't. All through the 1970s and 1980s the UK government had a back channel dialogue with the IRA through MI6 officer Michael Oatley. In fact, Tory chancellor Willie Whitelaw secretly had a group of top IRA commanders to his flat in London in 1972, asking them on what terms they might agree to a ceasefire. The difference between Corbyn and the UK government is that every time they spoke to and engaged with the IRA, they did so in order to try to convince them to agree to a ceasefire, put down their guns and engage in the political process. Every time Corbyn spoke to and about the IRA, it was to support and cheer on their campaign of bombs and bullets, which is why Corbyn attacked and voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement (which led to the end of the conflict) in the mid-80s. In the end, the IRA agreed to peace terms that were no more ambitious than had been offered to them in 1972; they agreed to NI staying in the United Kingdom, and power-sharing. All those thousands of lives lost were lost needlessly, but I don't think Corbyn has ever apologised for supporting it.
(6) I've only scratched the surface of his dodgy associations and friendships, of the extremist and violent groups he's supported, and his dishonesty in that whenever he's asked about it, he always says something like, "They never said anything racist in front of me". There are numerous other examples, and they speak to the kind of person he is. He is an ideologue, who places his batshit views over and above human life and decency. And it is not a "smear" to bring these things up; something can't be a smear if it's actually true.
(7) Even if someone doesn't really care and actually support all these things he's done, if they at all care about getting left-wing policies implemented (which means getting the Labour Party elected), then surely they should care that up until now there's a reason the Tories have kept their powder dry and haven't really gone hard on this stuff. It's because if Labour goes into the next election led by Corbyn, it will get hammered every single day as the party led by a man who takes money from murderers, a man who befriends and defends extremist bigots, a man who takes his orders from Moscow and Tehran. And it will stick because these things have the ring of truth about them; he did take thousands of pounds from the Iranian government to shill for them on TV. He does befriend fascists and defend them when they get in trouble. And he does play the part of the useful idiot, repeating and spreading propaganda emanating from Russia Today and hypocritically defending the Assad regime (with its barrel bombs and torture) while attacking the West for its very surgical attacks on ISIS targets. He will get absolutely destroyed in an election; I would enjoy the show if it didn't mean my beloved Labour Party goes down with him.
(8) On top of the manifest amorality, hypocrisy and dishonesty of the man, it's also entirely clear that he fundamentally lacks the skills and charisma needed to manage an opposition party in parliament, let alone govern a nation. He comes across as shabby, disorganised and vapid because he is shabby, disorganised and vapid. If you want to see just how desperately he needs the adoration from his followers, how self-absorbed he is (signing apples with his autograph to sell off to his followers, and claiming they will be quite valuable one day) and how utterly lacking in the ability to actually fight the Tories (when Ian Duncan-Smith resigned as DWP Secretary, creating a huge embarrassment and vulnerability for the government, Corbyn lazily refused to take advantage of it and said "It's not my job to show how bad the government is"... err, that's exactly the job of the opposition leader) then watch this Vice Documentary where someone who voted for him in the 2015 leadership election comes to see how utterly inept and narcissistic he truly is.
[video="youtube;94ptAcbfKP0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ptAcbfKP0[/video]
Here are my reasons;
(1) Corbyn has demonstrated a scary degree of amorality when he agreed to take £20,000 to be a television propaganda shill for the Iranian government (uk.businessinsider.com/jeremy-corbyn-paid-iran-press-tv-tortured-journalist-2016-6). That regime is easily one of the worst in the world, with their murder of "adulterous" women and men, homosexuals, atheists and leftists. See below an excerpt from their penal code to give you an idea of the kind of people from whom Corbyn was happy to take money to shill for (zoom below pic, more paras below);
(2) Corbyn has repeatedly offered support for terrorist murderers. Only a few years ago he didn't just call Hamas his "friends" (and then dishonestly claim he was merely being diplomatic), he went on to praise their "dedication to peace and social justice". He later had to admit, when confronted in the Home Affairs Committee with the fact Hamas called for all Jews worldwide to be killed, that they are indeed extremely anti-semitic.
(3) Corbyn has for years associated with Hamas' European proxy groups and representatives. He warmly welcomed the Hamas ally Raed Salah to the UK (Salah has spread the blood libel that Jews sacrifice gentile children and eat them in satanic ceremonies). Salah when interviewed also fondly recalled when in high school he drew a swastika on the blackboard to offend/abuse a Jewish teacher. When Theresa May tried to have this man deported from the country, Corbyn immediately leapt to his defence, helping to raise funds for his legal defence and praising him as, "a very honoured citizen" who "represents his people well" and mentioning that he (Corbyn) would be delighted to take tea with him on the terrace of parliament.
(3) He has for years associated with Holocaust deniers and neo-Nazis. Corbyn participated in events with the neo-Nazi James Thring who claims "the world is run by a cabal of Jewish elders". When the Church of England moved to discipline one of its clerics, the deluded Stephen Sizer, for claiming that "the Jews did 9/11", Corbyn leapt to his defence too, writing a letter to the church authorities listing Sizer's "excellent" personal qualities. Corbyn also associated, for years, with the Holocaust denier Paul Eisen, and then lied about it last year when asked; Corbyn claimed once he found out he stopped associating with him. However, Eisen was notoriously expelled from the Palestine solidarity community in 2008, and yet in 2013 Corbyn was still involving himself in Eisen's yearly event DYR. The neo-Nazi KKK leader David Duke has also praised Corbyn for "knowing the truth" and emphatically welcomed his election as Labour leader (http://www.dailystormer.com/the-david-duke-show-on-jeremy-corbyn-and-will-the-real-scv-please-stand-up/). Why is it that neo-Nazis think Corbyn is so good?
(4) Corbyn is also an associate of the far-left fanatic Richard Seymour who said "Jewish journalist reporting on Israel-Palestine; **** him, they should cut his throat". They've moved in the same circles for years and Corbyn shared a platform with him (even though he has said he believes in no-platforming fascists and extremists... obviously he doesn't think there's anything wrong with the people mentioned above).
(5) Corbyn was a supporter of the IRA for many years. While his supporters laughably and ignorantly claim that somehow he was "ahead of his time" by "talking with the IRA", the reality is that he wasn't engaging with them to persuade them to put down their guns. He fully supported their campaign of bombings and shootings, while spurning the Labour Party's fraternal socialist party in Northern Ireland, the non-violent SDLP. When the IRA bombed the Grand Hotel in Brighton in 1984, murdering 5 people and coming extremely close to killing the Prime Minister, the paper Corbyn was editing published this joke, "What do you call 5 dead Tories? A good start". And in 1988 when a group of IRA terrorists, who were attacking a police station with a car bomb and machine guns, were thankfully stopped and killed, Corbyn held a minute's silence for them. It's also obnoxiously wrong to claim that he was trying to bring about peace and the UK government wasn't. All through the 1970s and 1980s the UK government had a back channel dialogue with the IRA through MI6 officer Michael Oatley. In fact, Tory chancellor Willie Whitelaw secretly had a group of top IRA commanders to his flat in London in 1972, asking them on what terms they might agree to a ceasefire. The difference between Corbyn and the UK government is that every time they spoke to and engaged with the IRA, they did so in order to try to convince them to agree to a ceasefire, put down their guns and engage in the political process. Every time Corbyn spoke to and about the IRA, it was to support and cheer on their campaign of bombs and bullets, which is why Corbyn attacked and voted against the Anglo-Irish Agreement (which led to the end of the conflict) in the mid-80s. In the end, the IRA agreed to peace terms that were no more ambitious than had been offered to them in 1972; they agreed to NI staying in the United Kingdom, and power-sharing. All those thousands of lives lost were lost needlessly, but I don't think Corbyn has ever apologised for supporting it.
(6) I've only scratched the surface of his dodgy associations and friendships, of the extremist and violent groups he's supported, and his dishonesty in that whenever he's asked about it, he always says something like, "They never said anything racist in front of me". There are numerous other examples, and they speak to the kind of person he is. He is an ideologue, who places his batshit views over and above human life and decency. And it is not a "smear" to bring these things up; something can't be a smear if it's actually true.
(7) Even if someone doesn't really care and actually support all these things he's done, if they at all care about getting left-wing policies implemented (which means getting the Labour Party elected), then surely they should care that up until now there's a reason the Tories have kept their powder dry and haven't really gone hard on this stuff. It's because if Labour goes into the next election led by Corbyn, it will get hammered every single day as the party led by a man who takes money from murderers, a man who befriends and defends extremist bigots, a man who takes his orders from Moscow and Tehran. And it will stick because these things have the ring of truth about them; he did take thousands of pounds from the Iranian government to shill for them on TV. He does befriend fascists and defend them when they get in trouble. And he does play the part of the useful idiot, repeating and spreading propaganda emanating from Russia Today and hypocritically defending the Assad regime (with its barrel bombs and torture) while attacking the West for its very surgical attacks on ISIS targets. He will get absolutely destroyed in an election; I would enjoy the show if it didn't mean my beloved Labour Party goes down with him.
(8) On top of the manifest amorality, hypocrisy and dishonesty of the man, it's also entirely clear that he fundamentally lacks the skills and charisma needed to manage an opposition party in parliament, let alone govern a nation. He comes across as shabby, disorganised and vapid because he is shabby, disorganised and vapid. If you want to see just how desperately he needs the adoration from his followers, how self-absorbed he is (signing apples with his autograph to sell off to his followers, and claiming they will be quite valuable one day) and how utterly lacking in the ability to actually fight the Tories (when Ian Duncan-Smith resigned as DWP Secretary, creating a huge embarrassment and vulnerability for the government, Corbyn lazily refused to take advantage of it and said "It's not my job to show how bad the government is"... err, that's exactly the job of the opposition leader) then watch this Vice Documentary where someone who voted for him in the 2015 leadership election comes to see how utterly inept and narcissistic he truly is.
[video="youtube;94ptAcbfKP0"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ptAcbfKP0[/video]
Scroll to see replies
I think you are rather hysterical about Corbyn. I'd be happy for an alternative that was a 'futurist' candidate, but Owen Smith is talking of second referendums. That is a massive vote loser across swathes of non metropolitan and northern England in my view. Too bad the Labour establishment has not grasped this and doesn't seem to have many new ideas.
Though, I would of course be most delighted if the parties, and their not-fit -for-purpose, outmoded tribal identities died completely.
I await your vitriol, sire.
Though, I would of course be most delighted if the parties, and their not-fit -for-purpose, outmoded tribal identities died completely.
I await your vitriol, sire.
(edited 7 years ago)
Regardless of who I support, I think it is a massive risk to put Owen Smith in charge, with such avid support for Corbyn. Brexit highlighted anti-establishment sentiment, and putting an establishment-esque figure in charge of the Labour party risks handing over support to UKIP or the Tories.
I had become a labour member just to vote for Corbyn
Neither will ever be PM. Labour are completely unelectable for the foreseeable future. The Tories changed Prime Ministers in less time than it took Labour to agree on the rules for their leadership election.
I'm also going to vote for Smith.
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Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
Smith will be another Milibland in the unlikely event that he wins.
Which is a phenomenal step up from Corbyn.
I think he's slightly better than Miliband tbh.
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Original post by Bornblue
Which is a phenomenal step up from Corbyn.
I think he's slightly better than Miliband tbh.
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I think he's slightly better than Miliband tbh.
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Probably true. I'm just saying, I think Labour will have no chance either way. From what I've seen of him he is rather dull and uninspiring to say the least. On the one hand he seems quite left-wing relatively speaking, which of course is good, being a nominee for Labour leadership, but on the other I dunno how much of that is just done to try to win over people who are voting Corbyn because he is more left-wing than average.
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
Probably true. I'm just saying, I think Labour will have no chance either way. From what I've seen of him he is rather dull and uninspiring to say the least. On the one hand he seems quite left-wing relatively speaking, which of course is good, being a nominee for Labour leadership, but on the other I dunno how much of that is just done to try to win over people who are voting Corbyn because he is more left-wing than average.
Because of the fact that labour's base is very left wing, Smith has had to appeal to them and made himself look a bit silly.
However, if he won I think we'd see a far more competent, reasoned and coherent person.
Although he may not win the General Election , under Corbyn there is a risk of Labour splitting.
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Original post by AlexanderHam
I just cast my online ballot for Owen Smith. It might be futile, Corbyn will probably go on to win anyway, but I had to try (zoom below pic, there are more paragraphs further down)
How can you vote for someone who thinks it's a good policy to negotiate with ISIS?
To get this country back on track, we need a strong and reliable party such as the BNP.
Original post by 1 8 13 20 42
Probably true. I'm just saying, I think Labour will have no chance either way. From what I've seen of him he is rather dull and uninspiring to say the least. On the one hand he seems quite left-wing relatively speaking, which of course is good, being a nominee for Labour leadership, but on the other I dunno how much of that is just done to try to win over people who are voting Corbyn because he is more left-wing than average.
I have no faith in Smith doing anything except shifting central with so much pressure from the Blairites.
Original post by RomeoSantos
To get this country back on track, we need a strong and reliable party such as the BNP.
That's a good joke - rep.
"Strong and reliable" was what got me the most
considering they've lost 99% of their membership since 2013 
If I was bothered if vote for Smith for the reasons OP mentioned plus potentially stopping brexit and being able to actually lead the opposition.
He will probably lose though.
It will take mass deselections for Corbyn to be remotely able to lead the party and by that point he'll probably be dead.
He will probably lose though.
It will take mass deselections for Corbyn to be remotely able to lead the party and by that point he'll probably be dead.
Original post by alevelstresss
Regardless of who I support, I think it is a massive risk to put Owen Smith in charge, with such avid support for Corbyn. Brexit highlighted anti-establishment sentiment, and putting an establishment-esque figure in charge of the Labour party risks handing over support to UKIP or the Tories.
Yup. They are well behind the political curve. They think the electorate has lost their minds in rejecting the status quo- but then, that's what their reputation and continued career depends upon. It's happening with the narrative about Hillary in the US too. The public has had enough of the same policies. Corbyn is being attacked by the media, of course this is a problem, and maybe his age. But the extent of support for these kind of economic approaches that want to overturn the orthodoxy is there. If it is solely a 'competence' issue, then they need a future candidate that truly gets this, not what Owen Smith is showing.
Original post by Duncan2012
Neither will ever be PM. Labour are completely unelectable for the foreseeable future. The Tories changed Prime Ministers in less time than it took Labour to agree on the rules for their leadership election.
Pretty much this.
The last three leaders of Labour have all been unsuitable as PM's.
Owen is almost as bad as Corbyn talking about second referendums and such and whilst he might be slightly more popular than Corbs (not difficult) he still won't win a GE.
Original post by Bornblue
Because of the fact that labour's base is very left wing, Smith has had to appeal to them and made himself look a bit silly.
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I don't actually think Labour's base support is that left wing. This is what is splitting Labour now.
The core supporter in a GE, the working man (or woman) isn't going to register to vote for a leader. Corbyn's band of followers voted him in and basically hijacked the party by talking it further and further left. Whilst the majority of it is still trying to stay mild left.
This has alienated all the core support that would be the foundation of a GE and is splitting the party.
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