Criticising Islam and anti-Muslim bigotry...

You said that no one hates Muslims

and you make up some excuse about how its racial discrimination, its quite clearly, set in stone, religious discrimination

Straw Man #127.
Of course there are people who "hate Muslims", but the point is, why? If an under-educated right-winger hates Muslims because he sees them as "brown foreigners overrunning his country", then he is a racist xenophobe. He is hating them for being a different race and culture, not because of the religious ideology that they follow.

Obviously, there will be some who have an issue with individual Muslims because they support slavery, wife-beating, homophobia, misogyny, etc, but if that is the case, their dislike is arguably justified. If an educated, white Briton held those views, I would not like him as a person, so why must I have a different attitude to someone simply because they are a Muslim? It is another example of the soft racism of low expectations (many people conflating Muslims with "brown foreigners", just as you did).

So, when someone shouts "P@ki go home" to a 2nd generation British, Bangladeshi Muslim, it is "set in stone" religious, rather than racial hatred?
Year, right.

I provided you with clear evidence that people hate Muslims out there, you still continue to pretend its actually a racial problem

welcome back to my ignore list, you won't be casually removed next time

the fact is that if a muslim wants to integrate with countries like England and the USA, they simply can't follow their religion as it was originally intended to be: a belief system for conquering and waging war on all non-muslims.

the soft racism of low expectations .

an excellent expression

we should hold Muslims to the same standards as all other people, and no excuses should be made for their actions such as "it's the fault of US policies" "they are just reacting to Islamophobia" "how can we criticise them while we are supporting Israel" etc etc

we owe it to Muslims to treat them just like everyone else : no excuses, same standards

eliminate discrimination, where it exists : the negative one, but also the positive one

best

I am done. I am not going to argue with someone so blatantly lying:

1) It is irrelevant? You were the one who said something like "we must consider the time he was in, while not perfect, for his time he was better than the alternative". Given he is eternally the example, that is a completely wrong statement to make. And now you are saying it's irrelevant that he is the eternal example?

Your arguments are just as logically flawed and biased as alevelstresss'

And among "treating Muslims like everyone else" should be zero tolerance of bigotry against them, instead of the meek "meh, I can understand why some people are bigoted/lashing out", surely? I have rarely seen a form of bigotry that is so tolerated because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

And among "treating Muslims like everyone else" should be zero tolerance of bigotry against them, instead of the meek "meh, I can understand why some people are bigoted/lashing out", surely? I have rarely seen a form of bigotry that is so tolerated because "my enemy's enemy is my friend".

It is irrelevant because because I never made the claim that he is "eternally the example", which is open to interpretation itself. I simply dismissed your Nazi comparison as a fallacious false analogy.



Says the fool who compared Muslims to Nazis. You must have a hard time navigating daily life with all these Nazi-esque Muslamics walking around!

we have laws which deal with hate speech, racial discrimination etc and these laws are designed for everyone. Muslims are not a special case

these laws cannot of course always prevent cases from happening, as with any offense. No need for bombastic "zero tolerance" declarations

however, it should be clear on the other hand that pointing out that some practices and interpretations of Islam are incompatible with our societies, and criticising Islam's political/social agenda is perfectly legitimate, and does not constitute in any way hate speech

just like it is perfectly legitimate to oppose/criticise/attack(verbally) Scientology, Communism, Liberalism etc etc

best

Just because you say someone or something is bigoted, doesn't make it so.

I find this whole "bigot" debate funny anyway. I hope some other German might have some input, but as far as I know, we do not even have a word for bigot. The ones you get on translation sites are not it. Moreover, we don't spam it or something like it around like an insult, like an accusation, like a dismissal.

In addition, let me quote you my favorite quote on this issue by a very insightful man, Karl Popper:

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them"

Islam is an incredibly intolerant ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning it. Let me ask you something else as well. Are you for LGBT rights? How do you view someone who is against? How about someone who is openly against it? You are black if your pic is you. How about someone openly saying I think blacks are inferior. It's an opinion. Does it not make you a bigot for not tolerating that persons opinion? Or are you going to pretend in order to win this argument that it doesn't bother you if someone says that in public about blacks?

That wasn't my point. My point is that tolerating the casual bigotry showing up in these conversations and many others to do with Islam (such as comparing Muslims to Nazis, rationalising bigotry against them with "I can understand the backlash because they do such and such" and so forth are irresponsible and probably would not have been tolerated if it were any other group. So that should also apply to treating Muslims like everyone else.

Islam is an incredibly intolerant ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning it.

What has any of that got to do with anti-Muslim bigotry?

Justifying it by saying "well Islam teaches such and such" only proves my point further. And it goes to show that you are one of those people who cannot differentiate between criticising Islam and anti-Muslim bigotry because yes, they exist on both sides.

Ironic that you are oh so against this and yet you have no trouble believing and spreading a lie written by another poster to make someone on the other end of the argument to them look bad.

Do you even know what bigotry means?It means being intolerant of someone else because of the opinions they hold. This has everything to with it, because evidently you don't even know what the word means.

As I said in my previous post, in Germany we do not throw it around like an insult as you just did. Like a dismissal, "oh he said something against Islam, must be a bigot, what an *******s".

Don't like what someone else has to say - call him a bigot.

What lie?

Anti-Muslim bigotry is about having something against Muslims as people, not against the religious teachings. Don't play naive.

That wasn't my point. My point is that tolerating the casual bigotry showing up in these conversations and many others to do with Islam (such as comparing Muslims to Nazis, rationalising bigotry against them with "I can understand the backlash because they do such and such") and so forth are irresponsible and probably would not have been tolerated if it were any other group. So that should also apply to treating Muslims like everyone else.