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engineers > scientists > doctors > lawyers > everyone else

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Reply 120

HaramiSalami

entrepreneurs > research scientists = trustifarian NGO's > everyone else

Reply 121

The Clockwork Apple

Original post by Princepieman

Dear all,

Ty for the opinions, but as you're all aware, I'm pretty sure that my response was 'in jest'. Thus, it would be quite appropriate to therefore not get butthurt in this situation - it is merely exchange with a poster who wanted a slight ego boost with his own response.

If you have any other qualms, do inform me as I would love to discuss this matter even further.

Regards,
Prince

Man's got views

Reply 122

username738914

Original post by The Clockwork Apple

Man's got views

Skeen fam, just hit me up yh. Man's always 'mirin other people's views inni.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 123

NPWorld

Original post by Deeko1987

You do know engineers build, design and came up with the theories for most medical instruments.

Also hagen poiseuille equation used to model blood flow...tubes designed to rebuild arteries...engineer

I would like to dispute this claim. A lot of instrument are made by doctors too, and some others with some assistance from doctors.

A few examples like stents, artificial heart valves, pacemakers, defibrillators, heart-lung machines and anaesthetic machines were all actually invented by doctors. :wink:

Reply 124

NPWorld

Original post by Observatory

Serious accidents and deadly illnesses are actually pretty rare in people in people who still have a lot of natural life expectancy left. The vast majority of people are not kept alive by the intervention of doctors, they would have pretty much the same chance of living to 70 or 80 years old even without any medical care.

Medicine extends the life of dying people by a small amount and it can help manage some chronic conditions, although usually not very well.

The biggest gains to public health have been due to sanitation which is primarily what eliminated infection disease as a major cause of death. Sanitation is the creation of engineers and accountants.

Ironically hospitals have become points of anti-sanitation, breeding grounds for deadly treatment-resistant diseases coupled with places they can easily spread to a large pool of sick and healthy people. It is not clear to me that hospitals will be a net positive for public health in the near future.

Who told you chronic illnesses can't be managed well? Deadly diseases like small-pox, polio etc have been so well managed that they are almost completely eradicated. Yes, we do face a lot of problems, but eventually we will find a cure for them.

What about people who need replacement of a damaged part ? A hip/knee joint, heart, kidney can all be replaced adding decades to a person's life expectancy.
There were almost a total of 3.7 million surgical procedures performed per year in the UK alone, I am sure the vast amount were life saving procedures or at least extend life expectancy significantly.

Elimination of infections do increase life expectancy. But even here can you deny the involvement of doctors ? Joseph Lister, a pioneer in anti-septics, was a doctor too.
And....sanitation created by accountants ?

It's easy to underestimate a profession, until the day your life depends on one of them. This applies to any profession, not just doctors.

It's not the perfect profession and mistakes do happen, like in any other job. But I am sure it saves millions of lives around the world.

Reply 125

CassaNova

If you were to take scientists out of the equation, there would be no progression. we might all be taken out by a deadly unknown string of anthrax. We could still survive with engineers building us safe breathable bubbles of land, little artificial engineered planets of our own.

If you were to take doctors out of the equation, engineers would do their best to compile medical knowledge and feed it to artificial intelligence to figure out what is the underlying problem of that sore throat you woke up with.( the knowledge would be the same, so what's to say AI's can't do a better job, since they're more precise in their calculations, thanks to the programmers and engineers)

I you take engineers out of the equations, all that's left are the theoretical physicists, who would tell us their end of the world hypothesis and how we should have not tampered with the equations. :smile:

Reply 126

Trapz99

Original post by Princepieman

LOL I'm loving the formal letter layout
But yeah, that was pretty good bants, 7/10 maybe

Reply 127

NPWorld

Original post by Kadak

But their work relies on progress made in basic scientific research anyway.

That "basic scientific research" could be done by anyone; doctors, engineers, physicists, mathematicians etc. :smile:

Reply 128

NPWorld

Original post by CassaNova

I am pretty sure that in an outbreak of anthrax, doctors could easily come up with a solution based on their knowledge.

I think AI is definitely going replace some of the roles of doctors in near future, especially with it's accuracy. Even surgeries are already being performed by robots (albeit with doctors controlling and monitoring it). Usage of AI will be heavily restricted due to it's huge expense. But I am hopeful AI will improve vastly in the coming decades to replace a lot of jobs.

Reply 129

NPWorld

Original post by Deeko1987

Just a very simple google search confirmed the first artificial valve was created by a M.D but that's not what I said. I was talking about the instrument implanted to rebuild arteries.

But on your point, it is again engineers that laid out the foundations for the heat valve by developing the theories to build it upon. I.e Chemical engineering, Bernoulli equation, Hagen-poiseuille,reynold, laminar/turb flow etc. and further to the point all the other instruments are built on theories from either engineers or physicists.

TBH I thin we could go round in circles forever, you obviously enjoy your field, I enjoy mine and we will never understand the other persons field or enjoy it as much as they do.

I thought stent was an instrument used to 'rebuild arteries'. Or another option would be grafting. Although if there is something else, then I apologise.

That's one aspect I can never deny, a lot of foundation has been laid out by engineers and scientists. So, I guess when it comes to medical inventions we have to rely on each other :wink:

It's true that I love my field, but I like engineering too because I am aware of all the massive contributions that it has made to all our lives, although I will probably never get to fully appreciate it unless I become an engineer.

Reply 130

Observatory

Original post by NPWorld

Who told you chronic illnesses can't be managed well? Deadly diseases like small-pox, polio etc have been so well managed that they are almost completely eradicated. Yes, we do face a lot of problems, but eventually we will find a cure for them.
That's the point: they are not managed, people simply don't get infected with them. This is primarily due to improved sanitation.

What about people who need replacement of a damaged part ? A hip/knee joint, heart, kidney can all be replaced adding decades to a person's life expectancy.

Sure, but a small number of people, most of whom are already relatively old.

I am not saying this is useless, it's just not to be compared with the contributions of engineers, scientists, accountants, and lawyers, whose contributions are fundamental to the maintenance of a liveable society.

Reply 131

NPWorld

Original post by Observatory

That's the point: they are not managed, people simply don't get infected with them. This is primarily due to improved sanitation.

Sure, but a small number of people, most of whom are already relatively old.

I am not saying this is useless, it's just not to be compared with the contributions of engineers, scientists, accountants, and lawyers, whose contributions are fundamental to the maintenance of a liveable society.

We eradicated small-pox and polio not due to improved sanitation, but rather due to vaccination, a medical intervention.
Cancers are another major issue, but with current treatments at least 50% survive for at least another 1 decade (that's almost 180,000 people a year who had their lives extended by almost 10 years or more).
Bear in mind, almost 33% of the entire population suffer from some form of cancer at one point in their lives.

Just in the UK, 160000 people had Hip/Knee replacements in a year, not sure about the numbers for other replacement surgeries and number in other countries. Isn't that a relatively high number ? When it comes to organ transplant, priority is actually normally given to younger people than for older people.

Another important statistic, there almost 14.5 million A&E admissions in a year, which I'd say at least 10% were life saving. So, potentially 1.5 million people saved per year ?

And you are saying contributions of doctors in society are negligible ? I am sure if all the doctors on earth were wiped off, society would enter a massive disaster with deadly infections not being treated on time and it spreading to more and more people until human race gets wiped out :afraid:

(OK, maybe not, but at least millions would die everywhere)

I'd say all jobs are important to sustain human life and society as it is, especially doctors, engineers, scientists and teachers. Too many people on here are forgetting the contribution of teachers in society.

P.S: I got all the statistics from official databases (NHS, Cancer Research etc)

Reply 132

username2269391

My list is more like:

Dancers > Boxers > Software Engineers > Dogs > Cats > Other Engineers > Everyone Else > OP

Reply 133

NPWorld

Original post by JavaScriptMaster

My list is more like:

Dancers > Boxers > Software Engineers > Dogs > Cats > Other Engineers > Everyone Else > OP

Reply 134

Observatory

Original post by NPWorld

We eradicated small-pox and polio not due to improved sanitation, but rather due to vaccination, a medical intervention.
I would rate that one quarter true.

First, not all infectious diseases have vaccinations, but incidence of all infectious disease dropped very quickly over the course of the 20th century in countries with good sanitation to effectively zero. Vaccination only sped up a trend that was happening anyway.

Second, calling it a medical intervention is dubious. You don't need doctors to develop or administer vaccinations.

Cancers are another major issue

A major issue for the elderly, and one that medicine does not have a very good answer to.

Just in the UK, 160000 people had Hip/Knee replacements in a year, not sure about the numbers for other replacement surgeries and number in other countries. Isn't that a relatively high number ? When it comes to organ transplant, priority is actually normally given to younger people than for older people.

Sure, but this is a quality of life improvement for mostly elderly people. It's not existential for society. It's comparable to entertainment industries.

Another important statistic, there almost 14.5 million A&E admissions in a year, which I'd say at least 10% were life saving. So, potentially 1.5 million people saved per year ?

Rubbish. If you get figures like that it shows that the way you arrived at the figures is wrong.

And you are saying contributions of doctors in society are negligible ? I am sure if all the doctors on earth were wiped off, society would enter a massive disaster with deadly infections not being treated on time and it spreading to more and more people until human race gets wiped out :afraid:

(OK, maybe not, but at least millions would die everywhere)

I am saying that that wouldn't happen, that actually elderly people would just have somewhat (and probably not dramatically) more poorly managed chronic conditions, and a few people victim to very improbable accidents or very rare diseases (like serious infections in Western countries or cancers in children) would die who would otherwise have lived.

I'd say all jobs are important to sustain human life and society as it is, especially doctors, engineers, scientists and teachers. Too many people on here are forgetting the contribution of teachers in society.

Err, tanning booth operator? McDonalds table cleaner? Paper clip factory security guard?

Almost no jobs are necessary to sustain human life and society, which is a good thing because it leaves plenty of people left over to do nice-to-have optional extra jobs like operating tanning booths, cleaning McDonalds' franchises, securing paper clip factories, and performing hip replacements.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 135

kendo9

Physicists and mathematicians first then engineers then scientists (biologists chemists etc.) since physicists and mathematicians are behind Engineering!

Okay but in what?

You can go from day to day not using medicine but try and live a day without numbers.

Reply 138

NPWorld

Original post by Observatory

I would rate that one quarter true.

First, not all infectious diseases have vaccinations, but incidence of all infectious disease dropped very quickly over the course of the 20th century in countries with good sanitation to effectively zero. Vaccination only sped up a trend that was happening anyway.

Second, calling it a medical intervention is dubious. You don't need doctors to develop or administer vaccinations.

A major issue for the elderly, and one that medicine does not have a very good answer to.

Sure, but this is a quality of life improvement for mostly elderly people. It's not existential for society. It's comparable to entertainment industries.

Rubbish. If you get figures like that it shows that the way you arrived at the figures is wrong.

I am saying that that wouldn't happen, that actually elderly people would just have somewhat (and probably not dramatically) more poorly managed chronic conditions, and a few people victim to very improbable accidents or very rare diseases (like serious infections in Western countries or cancers in children) would die who would otherwise have lived.

Err, tanning booth operator? McDonalds table cleaner? Paper clip factory security guard?

Almost no jobs are necessary to sustain human life and society, which is a good thing because it leaves plenty of people left over to do nice-to-have optional extra jobs like operating tanning booths, cleaning McDonalds' franchises, securing paper clip factories, and performing hip replacements.

Not all infections have vaccinations, but they have some form of treatment, be it in the form of anti-biotics, anti-retrovirals etc. Without infections being treated it would rapidly spread.

I never said you need a doctor to administer vaccines, but for a deadly disease like small-pox (which did kill millions), the vaccine was a crucial invention, which was made by a doctor called Edward Jenner. So, vaccines being invented on time is important.

Cancer affects thousand of young people around the world. Treatment for cancer isn't perfect, but survival rates are higher than ever, and you may check the stats youself : http://www.cancerresearchuk.org/health-professional/cancer-statistics/incidence/age#heading-Zero

Replacement of body parts and organs not existential ? Maybe to an extent. Human race will still survive, but millions will die across the world.
You underestimate the importance of hip replacement. Having a new hip means, being more independent and having the capability to do more things yourself rather than relying on someone, which I'd say is very important for me. Although I have to admit that I'd rather use that funding for other life saving procedures.

The figure for A&E admissions :
http://digital.nhs.uk/article/6934/New-report-sheds-light-on-AE-attendances-in-England

If an epidemic like ebola is not treated well, that will spread rapidly across the globe killing millions (regardless of age).

You constantly seem to mention that most things affect older people. But shouldn't they be treated too, so that they can have a chance of living another 1 or 2 decades. We will all become old, and who knows what sort of treatment we may need.

You are right, no jobs are needed for sustaining human life. Humans have survived for thousands of years without any of these, albeit with a lower quality of life and an early death.