The Student Room Group

Junior doctors to strike again

Another Junior Doctors strike has been planned as The British Medical Association (BMA) are opposed to the new contract being implemented by Jeremy Hunt. Health Secretary Hunt has called the plan “Devastating”, criticising junior doctors who plan to strike between 8:00 17:00 from the 12th to 16th September. This will impact around 100,000 routine operations, but like the previous strikes, extra consultants and nurses will be deployed.

Why not have a quick look over the BBC's coverage on this topic: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37241267

What are your opinions on this? Are you are Medical student? Do you know anyone whose operation has been cancelled? Do you think this is for the greater good?

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Reply 1
It is in fact "devastating" as Hunt says, but he fails to realise time and time again that it's his fault. The BMA is becoming more brazen because like most doctors, many of whom are moving abroad to practice medicine in more favourable conditions, it no longer has very much to lose. If Hunt believes in a 7-day NHS why doesn't he allocate more resources to it instead of stretching it beyond its capacity and making matters worse by penalising doctors for his government's shortcoming.
(edited 7 years ago)
A sad, but necessary evil to prevent a dangerously ill-conceived 7 day plan.
The BMA is just asking for even tighter striking legislation, if they don't give up on asking for more money soon they will not only destroy the trust and respect of the profession, but cause strong public support for further trade Union legislation.

On the other hand, all Hunt needs to do is say those who are currently employed can stay on the contract if they want, change to the new one whenever they like, and any new JDs are automatically on it. The strikes will stop and come the next election only the stubborn mules will still be on the old contract

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The part which I don't understand is Theresa May backing Hunt and pretending that the doctors are at fault. Ludicrous and childish behaviour for a PM.
Original post by motoroller
The part which I don't understand is Theresa May backing Hunt and pretending that the doctors are at fault. Ludicrous and childish behaviour for a PM.


Explain why it is entirely the government at fault and why it is childish to support your ministers implementing your manifesto and jot backing down when the other person says "we don't like this." On top of that why it is childish not to back down when the other side of the table say "this is acceptable"

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Original post by Jammy Duel
The BMA is just asking for even tighter striking legislation, if they don't give up on asking for more money soon they will not only destroy the trust and respect of the profession, but cause strong public support for further trade Union legislation.

On the other hand, all Hunt needs to do is say those who are currently employed can stay on the contract if they want, change to the new one whenever they like, and any new JDs are automatically on it. The strikes will stop and come the next election only the stubborn mules will still be on the old contract

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I don't recall doctors ever asking for more money during this dispute.

In addition, junior doctors aren't going to send their new colleagues down the river purely for a swift resolution.
Original post by Etomidate
I don't recall doctors ever asking for more money during this dispute.

In addition, junior doctors aren't going to send their new colleagues down the river purely for a swift resolution.


You put too much faith in people to engage in people being selfless, and they haven't asked for more money...apart from the whole way through, may I remind you that what has been the main point has been the rates of pay?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/

Or if you prefer toilet paper

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/26/bma-considered-dragging-out-junior-doctors-dispute-emails-show

The dispute has been over rates of pay, while publicly pretending it's about safety until, and I believe since, clear evidence to the contrary. Safety is the new excuse because openly admitting it's about pay will give you very little public support, it's the exact same thing we're seeing on Southern Rail which will also hasten support for new legislation, especially if the latter extends beyond the one franchise, which has been threatened but would be legally questionable.

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Original post by Etomidate
I don't recall doctors ever asking for more money during this dispute.

In addition, junior doctors aren't going to send their new colleagues down the river purely for a swift resolution.


There was a leak of BMA emails, where the union leaders discuss strategy - including a plan to make the strike last as long as possible and a statement to the effect that pay was the only real issue.
Original post by Jammy Duel
You put too much faith in people to engage in people being selfless, and they haven't asked for more money...apart from the whole way through, may I remind you that what has been the main point has been the rates of pay?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/26/leak-reveals-junior-doctors-plot-to-draw-out-bitter-contract-dis/

Or if you prefer toilet paper

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/26/bma-considered-dragging-out-junior-doctors-dispute-emails-show

The dispute has been over rates of pay, while publicly pretending it's about safety until, and I believe since, clear evidence to the contrary. Safety is the new excuse because openly admitting it's about pay will give you very little public support, it's the exact same thing we're seeing on Southern Rail which will also hasten support for new legislation, especially if the latter extends beyond the one franchise, which has been threatened but would be legally questionable.

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Original post by Trinculo
There was a leak of BMA emails, where the union leaders discuss strategy - including a plan to make the strike last as long as possible and a statement to the effect that pay was the only real issue.


The main point hasn't been pay, despite the media perpetuating this. Yes, pay is a factor as the new contract seeks to slash the pay for certain specialities and working styles, but it is not the main issue. But I repeat, at no point have doctors asked for more money. To the contary, doctors salaries have essentially been fixed since the 70s contributing to an overall pay cut, as well as removal of free accommodation and increasing costs in practicing medicine. Yet there hasn't been a doctors strike in 40 years, until now.

I don't really care what one person said in a leaked whatsapp conversation. That one whatsapp message from one individual doesn't represent an entire industrial dispute with 50,000 people involved.

The bottom line for junior doctors is safety and it always has been. As it stands, the NHS is barely struggling to man a 5 day elective service. There are no resources to stretch this to a 7 day service safely. It hasn't been costed and there simply aren't enough doctors to do it.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Etomidate
The main point hasn't been pay, despite the media perpetuating this. Yes, pay is a factor as the new contract seeks to slash the pay for certain specialities and working styles, but it is not the main issue. But I repeat, at no point have doctors asked for more money. To the contary, doctors salaries have essentially been fixed since the 70s contributing to an overall pay cut, as well as removal of free accommodation and increasing costs in practicing medicine. Yet there hasn't been a doctors strike in 40 years, until now.

I don't really care what one person said in a leaked whatsapp conversation. That one whatsapp message from one individual doesn't represent an entire industrial dispute with 50,000 people involved.

The bottom line for junior doctors is safety and it always has been. As it stands, the NHS is barely struggling to man a 5 day elective service. There are no resources to stretch this to a 7 day service safely. It hasn't been costed and there simply aren't enough doctors to do it.


If these weren't doctors, most people would have zero sympathy for them, and tell them to stfu and get back to work.

Just ask the legions of medic wannabes on TSR if they would still apply to read medicine if the proposed contract is in place - I guarantee no-one would be deterred. People want to be doctors and don't really care about the conditions until they're in a position to moan about it.
OK, so they get paid above the average salary, but then didn't have the option to choose their career, knowing its inherent challenges.

Can a person who chooses to become an army officer complain about being on a battlefield, knee-deep in mud, seeing opposing soldiers shoot at him, or being at risk of PTSD or capture/torture as a POW?
Original post by Trinculo
If these weren't doctors, most people would have zero sympathy for them, and tell them to stfu and get back to work.

Just ask the legions of medic wannabes on TSR if they would still apply to read medicine if the proposed contract is in place - I guarantee no-one would be deterred. People want to be doctors and don't really care about the conditions until they're in a position to moan about it.


Applications for medical school have fallen a record amount, and for the first time in history, there are medicine places going into clearing. More unfilled positions are emerging in year groups that were previously oversubscribed.

Original post by kimkarsd
OK, so they get paid above the average salary, but then didn't have the option to choose their career, knowing its inherent challenges.
I don't think anyone went into medicine with the expectation of having terms of employment imposed on them against their will at the discretion of the government. Especially despite ignored cries from every corner that this is an impending disaster waiting to happen. Doctors are trying to warn the public that the government is about to do something incredibly dangerous, driven by an individual who has heavily vested interests in the private healthcare industry.
(edited 7 years ago)
I may be wrong here, but weren't the BMA happy at one point regarding the new contract, only to have another ballot where junior doctors disagreed?
Original post by _Morsey_
I may be wrong here, but weren't the BMA happy at one point regarding the new contract, only to have another ballot where junior doctors disagreed?


I believe there was a backtrack on a few of the points, hence the new disagreement.

Original post by Jammy Duel
Explain why it is entirely the government at fault and why it is childish to support your ministers implementing your manifesto and jot backing down when the other person says "we don't like this." On top of that why it is childish not to back down when the other side of the table say "this is acceptable"


The government are the ones imposing a contract which isn't workable. It is childish to back a minister who doesn't have any support in one of the most important professions in the country, and to push "facts" which actually have no evidence behind them. She has been quoted saying BMA should put patients first. Doctors have never done anything but put patients first, and I'm speaking from the experience of friends and family who are doctors. It's the same propaganda that led to Brexit, a web of spin which has no underlying fact, an abuse of authority and trust.
It's simple, stop rigging the medical student market and create a surplus of junior doctors, we'll see how greedy these kids are when there are 3 of them competing for one space.
Original post by Jannah Banana
It's simple, stop rigging the medical student market and create a surplus of junior doctors, we'll see how greedy these kids are when there are 3 of them competing for one space.



Obvious troll is obvious, back these kind of things up with facts. There are currently 2 applicants per specialty training place across the country, including GP.

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/Specialty_training_applications_for_2015%3A_competition_ratios_and_changes_to_the_process

Do you really expect people to commit a decade of their lives to studying if there were a 33% chance of them getting a career at the end of it?!
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by motoroller
Obvious troll is obvious, back these kind of things up with facts. There are currently 2 applicants per specialty training place across the country, including GP.

http://careers.bmj.com/careers/advice/Specialty_training_applications_for_2015%3A_competition_ratios_and_changes_to_the_process

Do you really expect people to commit a decade of their lives to studying if there were a 33% chance of them getting a career at the end of it?!


More people commit a similar amount of time and money to reading law with a much lower chance of a career at the end.
Original post by Etomidate
I don't think anyone went into medicine with the expectation of having terms of employment imposed on them against their will at the discretion of the government. Especially despite ignored cries from every corner that this is an impending disaster waiting to happen. Doctors are trying to warn the public that the government is about to do something incredibly dangerous, driven by an individual who has heavily vested interests in the private healthcare industry.


Further to this, many junior doctors don't get their contracts sorted until months into their placements (which other field would expect employees to work without any contract in place?!) - but this isn't a new phenomenon in medicine by any means
Reply 19
Hooray! I want the NHS to still be there by the time i get there... Pls hunt. Be merciful. Pls.

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