Poll shows majority of British people support burqa ban

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Yeh, but what about for fancy dress etc? It's a small thing in a way, but it's also kind of a big thing, because suddenly it stops being a cultural thing, and becomes a survellaince thing.

Huh?

Reply 21

999tigger

Original post by KingBradly

I think that was about Germany.

Make one on every country. Hot topic.

Reply 22

Gogregg

I feel like it probably wasn't exactly a good survey. Not only did it only have 1668 participants, but it seems to be something only those who were looking for it would find, so it seems to me to be opportunistic surveying to get the result they want.

Personally, I don't agree with a burqa ban. I agree how it can be important to see faces in some situations, but surely they can be told to take it off, in privacy, for all the required checks?

Reply 23

Zeus007

Original post by Josb

You can be modest without wearing a burqa/burkini.

The burqa isn't mentioned in the Quran.

I was talking about on the beach but however if they feel safe in the clothes THEY choose to wear then i don't see a problem honestly and asking them to leave for their clothing is just a backward and disgusting thing to do they were not causing any trouble.

I don't know about the Burqa being in the Quran or not but like i said it could be a cultural thing as well thats why i put religion/culture.

Reply 24

Josb

Original post by Zeus007

Its a religious/cultural thing,

So what? Should we allow anything that is "religious/cultural"?

Original post by Zeus007

they aren't covering themselves for fun . Who are you to prevent them from practising their own religion/culture.

Wearing the burqa isn't a requirement to practice Islam.

Original post by Zeus007

Britain is a secular country, Islam can't be banned.

Nobody mentioned "banning Islam".

Original post by Zeus007

I honestly don't see how a women wearing a burqa even effects you in anyway. I don't agree with the mob mentality on Muslims and never will.

You don't have to be affected by something to be against it.

Reply 25

Bang Outta Order

Original post by Zeus007

Sorry i meant as in you can give your point but saying "it makes me uncomfortable" is the most absurd reason ever. Just because something makes your uncomfortable doesn't mean the laws should change, that's not how life works. No they don't have to wear it but if they choose to wear it then you can't stop them i'm afraid. This is a secular country we don't ban religious clothing and we never will.

this was just an immature statement. "You cant stop them! :eviltongue:

."

Right. But legislature can. Understand how the coding of law works and remember the purposes of military, and then say something can't be done.

Reply 26

Josb

Original post by KingBradly

Yeh, but what about for fancy dress etc? It's a small thing in a way, but it's also kind of a big thing, because suddenly it stops being a cultural thing, and becomes a survellaince thing.

Wearing masks would be allowed in carnivals or parties.

Reply 27

Kryptonian

Original post by Zeus007

I can totally understand for security reasons in places such as airports. However seeing the news these days and what happened in France where innocent women just wanted to enjoy the beach in a modest way were told to leave because of their "burkini", that's when it starts getting over the top.

Also, i don't know if the burqa is compulsory as i'm not a Muslim so i can't answer that.

The burqa is the one where you can only see the eyes and nothing else.

Reply 28

The_Opinion

Original post by 0to100

@The_Opinion I feel like we need to talk mate lol we disagreed pretty strongly before about me getting on you for saying slurs about migrants but I feel there's some static still left there. Since I supported Brexit. I think I made it clear then that I disagree with Islam, and don't favour the veil thingies but yes I still stand by my thoughts that treating people horribly or saying slurs like they're animals for disagreeing with them is wrong. :yes:

but do I want them here? No. Just clarifying cuz you've been supporting my posts about migrants and Brexit. Just wondering if you feel my sentiments conflict...

Before I answer your question, can you please clarify this section.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 29

Zeus007

Original post by Josb

So what? Should we allow anything that is "religious/cultural"?

Wearing the burqa isn't a requirement to practice Islam.

Nobody mentioned "banning Islam".

You don't have to be affected by something to be against it.

Of course we should allow it as long as it doesn't affect people in a bad way. Well actually the OP did mention banning Islam, "Islam should not be welcomed in this country" this was said in the OP. What is the point in being against something if it does not affect you or your life? We don't have a certain dress code when living in Britain, it's called being secular.

Reply 30

Zeus007

Original post by 0to100

this was just an immature statement. "You cant stop them! :eviltongue:

."

Right. But legislature can. Understand how the coding of law works and remember the purposes of military, and then say something can't be done.

It can't be as immature as "i feel uncomfortable because of what someone is wearing". Of course you can ban it by force i never meant it in that way. Britain is currently a secular country so it can't ban it if it does then it can't be called a secular country anymore, that was my point.

Reply 31

tazarooni89

Original post by KingBradly

Exactly. I think it is necessary to show that Britain does not want nor approve of Islamic culture, except when it is highly progessive (which is rare), and it is important to show that actually we are proud of the things Muslims find shameful about our culture, such as how our women have the freedom and confidence to wear bikinis, or how
we like to drink, or how we enjoy sex openly and without shame; and we must show that most of us are not truly self-loathing and excessively critical of Western society. We must also show that we find Islam and many cultural aspects of Islam to be fairly miserable and not at all respectable nor admirable.

Surely if you value freedom so much, as well as valuing the freedom to do all of these things, you would also value the freedom to choose not to do all of these things as well? Not everyone wants to wear bikinis nor drink alcohol nor be sexually promiscuous, so why must they?

I would have thought the best way to demonstrate the value of freedom is to simply leave it up to the individual themselves to decide what to wear, what to drink or whom to sleep with, imposing as few restrictions as is practically possible.*

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 32

brxvebird

Original post by 0to100

So thirsty for reps. I bet only people who wear those things will rep you, and you knew they would. :rolleyes:

Anyway I support the ban! You can be Muslim without wearing it. And it ties into sexism anyway. Plus it makes me feel very uncomfortable.

Do you not understand the irony of you telling women they can't wear what they want (e.g, a burqa) because it's sexist? You are part of the problem my friend.

Reply 33

user 42005

Original post by KingBradly

Exactly. I think it is necessary to show that Britain does not want nor approve of Islamic culture, except when it is highly progessive (which is rare), and it is important to show that actually we are proud of the things Muslims find shameful about our culture, such as how our women have the freedom and confidence to wear bikinis, or how
we like to drink, or how we enjoy sex openly and without shame; and we must show that most of us are not truly self-loathing and excessively critical of Western society. We must also show that we find Islam and many cultural aspects of Islam to be fairly miserable and not at all respectable nor admirable.

But is banning the burqa a helpful option? If it is, I think I'd support it. But perhaps there are better things we can do. Other than the afore mentioned things, I'm not sure what though. I really thing the most important thing is a cultural shift, where people value the liberalism we enjoy here more, and stand up for it, and don't endlessly criticise it, because I genuinely think it leads Muslims to have less respect for our culture, and that it helps them to justify their religious ideals that conflict with our culture. Case in point: the countless times I've heard Muslims argue why the Islamic veil is great, by saying it is either better than, or even that it counters (I can find the Guardian video if you like), the West's objectification of women.

Absolutely, I know a couple of Muslims who get on very well in Western life and are very agreeable people precisely because they've embraced more liberal values. I think it's fairly clear that the more conservative the person is in practising their religion, the less likely they are to integrate well into society. Collectively, we need to stop with this petty West-bashing culture that is developing (particularly among the young), and say to those who want to enter the country "these are our values, if you don't agree with them then we don't want you to have any presence in our society". The fact that a number of Muslims have successfully integrated is proof that if can happen, but the Islamic ideology itself stands in the way of that for a great many people. I'm proud of the liberty entitled to our citizens and I will oppose any ideology that seeks to restrict that.

In regards to the burqa ban we must turn to our friend 'pragmatism' and weigh up the pros, cons and other issues in implementing this. I can identify the following positive outcomes of introducing a ban:

1. Higher levels of security.
2. Less intimidating for non-Muslim members of the public (e.g. in the street)
3. Potentially prevents the oppression of women.
4. Makes a more homogenous society, resulting in less cultural clashes.

I think point 1 is indisputably beneficial, as is point 3. The only issue with point 3 is that some women may end up being banned from leaving the home, which is of course illegal but would be hard to monitor and enforce their freedom of movement. Point 2 is also beneficial, although I imagine it will garner some complaints about 'Islamophobia' in a very literal sense. I disagree with this, however, as a group of maybe 4-5 women clad head to toe in Islamic garb can be intimidating, particularly for children or people travelling by themselves. There have been incidents where men have hid underneath these costumes, so banning the burqa would also improve security here aside from facial recognition during conversation and by CCTV. As for point 4, I imagine people's response to this will depend on their attitude to multiculturalism. I think a homogenous society is beneficial and can list a number of reasons why that is so if anyone is interested, but others would say this would reduce diversity (which is apparently a good thing for some people). But certainly in terms of governability and civil unrest (lack of), homogenity is good.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 34

Bang Outta Order

Original post by The_Opinion

Before I answer your question, can you please clarify this section please.

Remeber that thread about the Swedish daughter that got raped by the migrant from...somewhere? You, Sheldoncooper, Zargabath,some other people, AngryRedhead I think, were calling not just the rapist an animal (he is one) but generalising that they all are animals. Like "don't let these animals in." Without such hateful rhetoric I agree they should not come in. I am just wondering if you were ever confused by me arguing with the wording in that thread yet voting vehemently for Brexit

Reply 35

Copperknickers

Original post by Zeus007

Its a religious/cultural thing, they aren't covering themselves for fun . Who are you to prevent them from practising their own religion/culture. Britain is a secular country, Islam can't be banned. I honestly don't see how a women wearing a burqa even effects you in anyway. I don't agree with the mob mentality on Muslims and never will.

I'm all for cultural and religious diversity, so long as it doesn't conflict with British values or harm society. The burqa/niqab, apart from looking ridiculous, has questionable credentials and is also sexist. Some Muslim women choose to wear it as a benign symbol of their Muslim identity (which itself is hardly necessary when they can simply wear a hijab), however many wear it as a bumper sticker for Islamic fundamentalism and conscious refusal to integrate with the 'kuffar' (an insulting term for non-Muslims), and many more are forced to wear it against their will by extremist husbands and family members. As far as I am concerned, it may appear to be simply a piece of clothing and for some people it is, but for many others it is a way of signalling their hatred of Christians and Jews.

Here in Scotland we have had to ban the wearing of certain football tops in many contexts, not because the football teams they represent are in any way bad or harmful, but because some people have turned them into Sectarian war paint and use them to glorify terrorist groups like the IRA and the UVF and to precipitate violence. I think the same applies to the niqab: it shouldn't in and of itself be seen as harmful, but it facilitates a situation wherein it is seen as acceptable to glorify violence and intolerance against people who are different from yourself.

And of course, even in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, men too have to wear a special set of clothing and grow their facial hair in a certain way. Europe is the only place where Muslim men seem to be allowed to wear whatever they want, and yet it's 'a cultural practice' for women to be covered from head to toe. In fact in most Muslim countries the niqab is not commonly worn. Begging the question of where the 'culture' of these British and French Muslims actually comes from, if not from any real Muslim country. It comes from the sexism and anti-Western sentiment of native Brits of non-British origin who refuse to identify as British. And so there are many aspects of Islam in the UK worth protecting, but the niqab imo is not one of them. It serves no positive purpose that a hijab cannot fulfill just as well.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 36

Bang Outta Order

Original post by brxvebird

Do you not understand the irony of you telling women they can't wear what they want (e.g, a burqa) because it's sexist? You are part of the problem my friend.

You can't just call it ironic, elaborate. How is that ironic? When did I say women can't wear what they want?? My reasoning is because of security issues. Not repressing women which yes people say the veil thingy does. Do you not understand that...?

Reply 37

The_Opinion

Original post by 0to100

Well, I never said anything about animals.

However, there is a general pattern that people who are likely to call such people animals, or at least support the people that call them animals are generally going to be Brexit supporters. People supported Brexit for so many different reasons that it is hard to say that I am confused by you arguing against calling them animals, as it would mainly depend on your reasons for voting Brexit.

By biggest issue is with people who support Muslim migration, and then support gay rights and having a welfare state, they are mutually exclusive. I find those people to be utter morons. Those people also argue against Maths, where the Muslim population is doubling every 10 years, yet when you say to them that the UK is on schedule to become a Muslim nation by the year XXXX, they deny it and say that you are being crazy, ignoring all data and demographics.

It is one of the reasons that I support Anjem Choudary, because he is correct.

Reply 38

brxvebird

Original post by 0to100

You literally said "it ties into sexism anyway". Your problem with it in that sense is that women are being oppressed and forced to wear it, right?
Yet here you are telling women the exact opposite, that they can't wear what they want, whether it be a burqa or a short skirt or a bikini it's wrong and it invalidates your argument completely. You are still taking women's choices away from them.

Reply 39

MedioCentro97

As a Muslim, I must say the niqab (face covering) is ridiculous and unnecessary. A women could wear a hijab with normal clothes and it'd be enough, but it doesn't mean something drastic like a ban should be put in place for it.

The Burkini however, is NOT a face cover, it's just an easy cover for the rest of the body when you're at the beach. There is nothing wrong with that and I don't see why people would be against it. Not every women wants to be 95% naked.