Poll shows majority of British people support burqa ban

Original post by Dysto

I don't think covering your face should be legal, there's freedom then there's religious over-privilege.

What about people who cover their face with scarves in the winter because it's quite cold, should they be locked up?

Reply 222

alevelstresss

2

proof that the UK is now a regressive country, thanks kingbradly

Reply 223

nulli tertius

21

Original post by BaconandSauce

Not true. A nuns outfit relates to her profession of being a nun this is not the case for muslim women who wear a burka.

It is more akin to a police uniform while the burka is a fashion choice.

You may have responded wrongly to the word "functionally". The function of a burqua is to cover certain parts (ie virtually all) of the body. The motivation of the wearer is irrelevant unless it can be used as part of the definition of what is rendered illegal.

The problem is that it becomes impossible to define what is to be prohibited in neutral language without catching a nun's habit. Unless you say Muslim women cannot wear all body enveloping clothes or that such clothes cannot be worn to show an affiliation with Islam, you do not have workable legislation and if you do say this, and if you do say that, then you are saying there is nothing morally wrong with saying Jews must wear yellow stars.

What is almost universally seen as the poorest piece of legislation on the statute book is the Dangerous Dogs Act and one of the major reasons was it was an attempt to outlaw a breed, the American Pit Bull, that was unrecognised and therefore undefined by any dog registration body. A dog can be a pitbull even though neither of its parents was.

Have a go at defining a burqa and see what the problems are

Reply 224

Ajzach

I certainly agree with the post above. Banning the burqa isn't much better than enforcing women to wear burqas in islamic countries. I believe we see this garment as symbol of aniti-western tradition, a cheek to women's rights etc. Even if its true, and living outside of burqa-related traditions would be better for eastern women, isn't it better to acknowledge them with our customs without banning their heritage?

Reply 225

Original post by Captain Jack

It's not an argument, it is a view.

All arguments are views, presented in opposition to another's views.
You presented your view in response to the views presented by others, therefore making an argument.

Reply 226

Original post by polysci

First: surveys and polls always have an inherent bias. This is because they aren't run by "Professor Xavier" and hence can only capture data that people choose to supply. This means they tend to capture data from people who (a) have time to answer and (b) find the issue worth commenting on. If we put (a) and (b) together, a more accurate title for the poll may be "the majority of (a) unemployed (b) racists plus a few bored politics students support a burqa ban". I really wish that newspapers and blogs would stop publishing results with such sweeping titles because they create an unwitting influence campaign and confirmation bias in the (tiny) minds of racists.

First: we now know that you do not understand how surveys and opinion polls are untertaken.
We also know that you don't understand what "racist" means (or perhaps you do, but are hoping that lobbing the R-bomb will add weight to a flawed argument).

Second: I agree that repression/oppression of women exists. Marrying/forcing a child into sexual relationships is wrong (Yemen, I'm looking at you). FGM is abhorrent. However, the burqa is a piece of clothing. It sits at the other end of the spectrum from a thong bikini, but it's just clothing. Guys who say "it's a symbol of oppression" are making the same error (in a different direction) as guys who say "she's asking for it" when a girl's in a short dress. Clothes are clothes.

Second: we now know that you have no idea of the Islamic concepts of faith, modesty, hijab, or fiqh. (or perhaps you do, but are simply being dsingenuous in order to add weight to a flawed argument).

This doesn't mean I would wear a burqa, but that's my choice and if a girl chooses to wear one, that's her choice. You will be in class at university with girls in burqas. They've chosen to study, chosen to move away from home (sometimes to a different country)... they've also chosen to wear a certain type of clothing and believe in something (in exactly the same way a nun or football fan does) and are not "oppressed".

If a Muslimah genuinely believes in Allah, and also that he cares whether you obey him or not, and has the will and ability to punish those who disobey him, and regards the niqab/burqa as a command from god - she is not freely choosing to wear it because of the consequences for not weraing it.
Then there is family, peer and community pressure.
So it is clearly not a simple choice like whether to wear jeans or a skirt.

Underneath that burqa there's a girl who deserves your respect and is going to be more than capable of being a brilliant friend (although they may skip the drinking games).

Respect is earned, not demanded.
And are you claiming that all niqabis are the same? And it is making quite an assumption that a person who believes so strongly in an ideology that I find largely unacceptable is capable of being a "brilliant friend".

Confession time: I've had intimate sexual relationships with girls who wear the burqa... believe me, once you've got them in just their skin they're pure woman... and every bit as beautiful as someone who lives in spandex shorts and a t-shirt.

I smell ********.

At the end of the day it all comes down to how much wrapping paper you like on your birthday present :wink:

Ah yes, the old "women are the possessions of men" analogy.
Well done! :congrats:

Reply 227

Original post by ajay1998

Yeah that's fine, they can wear whatever they want for whatever reasons. It's none of my business what they wear on a daily basis, I'm not Gok Wan.

So the nature of the niqab and the nun's habit are not the same.

Reply 228

Original post by DicksOut4Haraam

The state has no business policing people's choice of clothing.

The issue of face-covering in particular situations is somewhat different.

Anywhere where a person is required to remove a full-face helmet, balaclava, etc, they should also be required to remove facial element of a niqab or burqa. There is no cogent argument against this.

Reply 229

Original post by Josb

It's only a matter of time before we see Islamist parties. The link will be much more obvious then.

It is hard to argue that Islam is not political when the constitution of Saudi Arabia is the Quran and sunnah (for example).

Reply 230

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by Josb

It's only a matter of time before we see Islamist parties. The link will be much more obvious then.

Well we have the BNP. Don't see why an Islamist party is any worse. Or are you some kind of safe space authoritarian?

Luckily those types of parties in the UK are no where near able to get power and mass democratic support.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 231

Original post by Zeus007

Yeah i thought it would be a cultural thing if not religious. This doesn't mean just because its cultural they shouldn't wear it, you can't change someones culture.

Of course you can. This comes from a culture that has no place in a civilised society, stemming from radical relgious xtremeism and treating women as lesser than men. (Hence the countries this 'culture' comes from women can't even legally drive).

Maybe you can't change someones culture, but you can tell them it isn't appropriate here.

I mean damn its cultural in some African countries to mutilate female babies (FGM). Does that mean its ok because its cultural and we should just accept it? Or maybe some cultures should be challenged.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 232

Zeus007

Original post by JG1233

Of course you can. This comes from a culture that has no place in a civilised society, stemming from radical relgious xtremeism and treating women as lesser than men. (Hence the countries this 'culture' comes from women can't even legally drive).

Maybe you can't change someones culture, but you can tell them it isn't appropriate here.

I mean damn its cultural in some African countries to mutilate female babies (FGM). Does that mean its ok because its cultural and we should just accept it? Or maybe some cultures should be challenged.

Yeah this is such a civilised society we live in that a women choosing to be modest is a horrible thing. Mutilating babies and choosing to wear a certain clothing is a big difference. Your points are unintelligent and just bad.

Reply 233

Original post by Zeus007

Yeah this is such a civilised society we live in that a women choosing to be modest is a horrible thing. Mutilating babies and choosing to wear a certain clothing is a big difference. Your points are unintelligent and just bad.

Are you honestly trying to suggest our society is less civilised than the Saudi societies you are trying to emulate? Choosing? you clearly have no clue. Whilst some women in the UK maybe choose to wear the burqa, they are copying a culture of women who have no choice. Where they are barely even second class citizens, and i personally would rather leave that mindset in those countries.

My point was you said that we have to respect cultures. I said we don't, some cultures are not worthy of respect and have no place in a civilised world. Whether it be oppressing women in the name of a religion or anything else.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 234

Zeus007

Original post by JG1233

Are you honestly trying to suggest our society is less civilised than the Saudi societies you are trying to emulate? Choosing you clearly have no clue. Whilst some women in the UK maybe choose to wear the burqa, they are copying a culture of women who have no choice. Where they are barely even second class citizens, and i personally would rather leave that mindset in those countries.

My point was you said that we have to respect cultures. I said we don't, some cultures are not worthy of respect and have no place in a civilised world. Whether is be oppressing women in the name of a religion or anything else.

Do you see the irony? You say this is a civilised society but then you're telling them what to wear. In what civilised society do we tell women what to wear and what not to wear because it offends you or you feel uncomfortable?

Reply 235

Original post by Zeus007

Do you see the irony? You say this is a civilised society but then you're telling them what to wear. In what civilised society do we tell women what to wear and what not to wear because it offends you or you feel uncomfortable?

We tell people what to wear often.
If someone walked down the street in a KKK uniform we would tell them to take it of because it offends people. If someone was walking through Birmingham bullring in a Halloween mask or balaclava we would see it as a safety threat and tell them not too. You are acting like the only clothing we slightly police is Burqas when that is obviously not true.
We don't let people walk around naked either, but nobody seems to see that as a issue of "telling people what to wear".

I see no irony. We tell people what to wear if it is not appropriate by a Western standard quite often. Sure that might not be perfect, but its a million times better than the culture the Burqa came from.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 236

Zeus007

Original post by JG1233

We tell people what to wear often.
If someone walked down the street in a KKK uniform we would tell them to take it of because it offends people. If someone was walking through Birmingham bullring in a Halloween mask or balaclava we would see it as a safety threat and tell them not too. You are acting like the only clothing we slightly police is Burqas when that is obviously not true.
We don't let people walk around naked either, but nobody seems to see that as a issue of "telling people what to wear".

I see no irony. We tell people what to wear if it is not appropriate by a Western standard quite often. Sure that might not be perfect, but its a million times better than the culture the Burqa came from.

Again your comparisons are horrible, KKK? really? Halloween mask and balaclava? Yeah you're not going to get any sense of what i'm saying to you.

Reply 237

Original post by Zeus007

Do you see the irony? You say this is a civilised society but then you're telling them what to wear. In what civilised society do we tell women what to wear and what not to wear because it offends you or you feel uncomfortable?

In the context of genuine belief in an omnipotent and omniscient god who punishes disobedience with an eternity of torture - following his orders is not a "choice".

Reply 238

Original post by Zeus007

Again your comparisons are horrible, KKK? really? Halloween mask and balaclava? Yeah you're not going to get any sense of what i'm saying to you.

I see you ignored the nudity one then. But ye i see these as good examples.

At least balaclavas and halloween masks don't originate from a culture off oppression and religious fanaticism. Surely a person should be more free to walk around in one of those. And don't give me this whole well burqa's are religious, because i dont believe in giving certain members of society different freedoms from others based on their religion.

Your points are terrible and bordering on the stupid side.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 239

Josb