The Student Room Group

There is no evidence for God

Scroll to see replies

Reply 480
IMO, I think belief stems from humans' inherent need for explanations/rationalizations and fear of the unknown, and has nothing to do with organized religion. This is not a bad thing. We all strive for structure, struggle for some understanding of our world and lives. For some people this structure comes from the knowledge of the natural laws of the universe whereas from others it is an entity that embodies these laws. Some even gain structure by believing that this entity has a hand in human affairs. This is, folks, my personal understanding of belief.

It's when belief for comfort and peace of mind morphs into an aggressive/violent/corrupt agenda/ambition as is the case with certain groups within organized religion, is when it turns unnecessary and twisted. I (an atheist) also disagree with pouring huge financial resources (which could be put to better use elsewhere, such as education/development) into public worship/offerings etc. I also think that children should be allowed to make up their own mind about God.

All said and done, I don't have a problem with people believing what they will as long it harms no one in any way whatsoever. Nobody has the right to try and impose their beliefs on another. It is a serious breach of personal space for anyone to do so.
Original post by inhuman
You could not be more wrong.

Plenty of animal species are known to engage in homosexual acts. Plenty of human civilizations did, too - look at the Greek for starters.


Stupid humans always trying to challenge me. I clearly said live and let live. Animals both human and non-human can do what they want. After all I am a laissez-faire God. :dice:
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 482
Original post by oldercon1953
".....only those who do the will of my father in heaven." The only command that I can think of would be Love God and love your neighbor. Aren't all the commands summed up in that one command?

Jesus said no man will enter heaven except through him. How can you say Jews won't enter thru him? Or Muslims, We are told we have Gods commands written on our hearts and it is our hearts that convict us.


I think if you look at the context of when Jesus said that, and then at the wider context of his ministry, you will see things very differently.

I can back up everything I am now going to say with biblical references, if you want to do some further reading. Just ask.

The reason why Jesus explained what the two most important commandments were, was to demonstrate to the people that they were sinners. It wasn't just a meaningless "Golden Rule". You have to understand that within the context, he was speaking to Jews. The Jews were waiting for "the Chosen One" or "the Messiah", as prophesied in their scriptures, written at least centuries before. He was the one they were waiting for.

The Messiah would come and save them from their sins, through faith in him. Not by adherence to the law of God - nobody could do that perfectly. Otherwise, Jesus would not have to die on the cross as a sacrifice for sin. The whole point was to help them see that nobody was good enough to meet the standard of God. Therefore, God had to provide the means to reconcile mankind back to himself.

Jesus showed that if they would "believe" or trust in him, and they would be saved from the judgement that they deserve. This is because the righteousness of Jesus himself would be "imputed" or attributed to the believer. This is why Romans 4 says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Abraham was a Jew who lived many years before Jesus. It was not about him obeying God's laws - he'd broken lots of them, so he was still guilty. It was about trusting in the promises of God - through that faith, the righteousness of Jesus was imputed to Abraham's account.

Notice, Jesus said "Come to me, all who are weary, and I will give you rest." This is the point. Jesus came to bring people who are broken out of their mess, because they could not do it themselves. The whole thing is a rescue mission. He is definitely not saying "if you follow all my commandments, you will please God enough to make it into heaven." or "follow my most important commandments, and you will be saved." He's showing them what is right and wrong, and calling them to turn from their evil, so that they can believe in him, their only hope.

One more illustration: Imagine you had committed a crime like fraud. Say the judge sentences you to jail. Then you say to the judge, "I know I committed fraud that one time, but look at all the good things I did as well. I gave to charity. I loved everybody as I love myself..." and you went on and on, listing the great things you did.

What would a just judge do? Well he would say, "Well done for doing those good things, but you can't bribe me with those, you must suffer the just penalty for your crimes." Then he would send you to jail.

It's the same with God. You still get punished, unless you trust Jesus to freely take the punishment you deserve.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Pride
The reason why Jesus explained what the two most important commandments were, was to demonstrate to the people that they were sinners. It wasn't just a meaningless "Golden Rule". You have to understand that within the context, he was speaking to Jews. The Jews were waiting for "the Chosen One" or "the Messiah", as prophesied in their scriptures, written at least centuries before. He was the one they were waiting for.

The Messiah would come and save them from their sins, through faith in him. Not by adherence to the law of God - nobody could do that perfectly.

The most important commandments were written with the finger of God on two tablets of stone. Jews were not waiting somebody who denies the Laws of God.
Original post by inhuman
But science can't yet explain the exact origins of the universe.

And you must be one the naivest people ever. Or just a theist...

Science does explain many things, such as evolution, and many religious people and many leading religious institutions now accept it as true, and have in one way or another incorporated it their mantra somehow reconciling it with their scripture.

And yet you will find plenty of people in say America's Bible Belt that teach their kids creationism. How a country like America can let scores of its children be brought up brainwashed at school like that...now that, that doesn't make sense.
what is your opinion of big bang theory?
Original post by Onde
"God" does not even qualify as a hypothesis, as a hypothesis is "Used loosely, a tentative conjecture explaining an observation, phenomenon or scientific problem that can be tested by further observation, investigation and/or experimentation."

For "god" to be a null hypothesis, it would have to be considered a possible explanation: a "god", as a supernatural entity, cannot qualify because a supernatural phenomenon is necessarily an oxymoron.

We can safely say that so-called "supernatural phenomena" such as gods have no observable effect on the natural world whatsoever, and never will.

how might one observe what they would not know how to observe nor notice that which needs to be observed?

if one may consider God, how would one be able to conjure or imagine possible ways God would/could influence the world we can observe?
Reply 486
Original post by admonit
The most important commandments were written with the finger of God on two tablets of stone. Jews were not waiting somebody who denies the Laws of God.


The two most important commandments were quoted from the Torah itself - Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6.

He did not deny the Law. Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets [the Torah and the Nevi'im]; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

I would ask you this. How do you know the ten commandments are the most important commandments? Do all ten of them hold the same weight on that list? If not, how would you know how to rank them in terms of importance/seriousness if disobeyed?
Reply 487
Original post by da_nolo
how might one observe what they would not know how to observe nor notice that which needs to be observed?

if one may consider God, how would one be able to conjure or imagine possible ways God would/could influence the world we can observe?


That's the pivotal question. It's the begging the question fallacy that I keep talking about, only disguised.
Original post by Pride
What? Sounds like universalism...



Well regardless of the sin, you need Jesus. Without him, you "stand:undefined: condemned already", as John 3:18 says.

in other words, we deserve to die because we have sinned. Without Jesus, you will get the punishment for your sin, which is death. What's death? Well we aren't sure about the details, but it involves hell, and it's a punishment.



Nope, that's not true. God didn't send his son to die on the cross solely to give us the chance to be with him. He did it to demonstrate his attributes. He did it to bring glory to himself. (Isaiah 11:9, Jeremiah 31:33-34). The gospel demonstrates his mercy, his love, his power, his wrath, his justice, lots of different attributes all in one gospel. He also did it to carry out his will through people.

Yes, God does care about us. He came to give those who are weary rest, he came to heal the sick, to wipe away all tears etc. But the world does not revolve around mankind. It revolves around God (obviously not literally, before someone makes the joke)..



So because you wouldn't punish people eternally, God wouldn't...? You are also suggesting that people aren't to blame for their sins. On what basis can you assert that?

Are you suggesting that you don't deserve eternal suffering? Please explain how.



To answer that question, let me quote Jesus:
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."
"I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins."
"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.’"


We certainly have different views on man and his importance to God.
The mind of man, I believe, is the only reason for the creation. Of all the living things on the planet only man's mind can appreciate it. Of course he did it for his glory, but only man can give him glory.

I certainly don't think i deserve eternal punishment for my sins. I've done nothing here on Earth to deserve anything close to death and I'm sure God is more just than man.
Original post by Pride
The two most important commandments were quoted from the Torah itself - Leviticus 19 and Deuteronomy 6.

They were not quoted but rephrased.
He did not deny the Law. Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets [the Torah and the Nevi'im]; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Yes, Jesus said that and at the same time he denied the Law.
I would ask you this. How do you know the ten commandments are the most important commandments?

Because they were written by God on two tablets of stone.
Do all ten of them hold the same weight on that list? If not, how would you know how to rank them in terms of importance/seriousness if disobeyed?

The importance of a commandment corresponds to its number in the Decalogue.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 490
Original post by oldercon1953
We certainly have different views on man and his importance to God.
The mind of man, I believe, is the only reason for the creation. Of all the living things on the planet only man's mind can appreciate it. Of course he did it for his glory, but only man can give him glory.


With respect, all I'm doing is quoting the bible as much as I can. If you disagree, you're disagreeing with what it says. You were joking about heresy earlier. But what do you expect if you just follow your own ideas because the truths in the bible are tough to swallow? You know, truths like, we're sinners, destined for destruction; wide is the path that leads to destruction, and many pass along it, as Jesus said. God loves us, but not because we deserve it.

As for why God made the universe, I recognise what you're saying, but I do think that's a very man-centric view of things, when the bible clearly talks about God creating things for himself (Colossians 1:16 and elsewhere). This includes doing it for his own glory, demonstrating his attributes. What you say also sounds very close to God depending on man, whereas it is the other way around. You may want to google this concept called "the aseity of God" - it's about how God relies on nothing outside of himself. He does not need us, he does not need our love, he does not owe anything to anybody.
On one hand, you're right, God wants people to love him, and to be in his presence. He wants people to recognise who he is, and he's the greatest thing in existence, so that's quite a gift he's offering to mankind. We take pleasure from our relationship with God, yet, he takes pleasure from us taking pleasure (and vice-versa perhaps... such is the nature of relationship).
On the other hand, he knew about sin, death and suffering before he even made the universe (I recognise the word 'before' doesn't really work when we're talking about a knowledge outside of space-time, but who can fathom that?). God knew that Jesus would have to become a man and suffer the way he did. Therefore it must have all been a part of his plan. He did it ultimately for his own pleasure.

I certainly don't think i deserve eternal punishment for my sins. I've done nothing here on Earth to deserve anything close to death and I'm sure God is more just than man.


Well the bible says "the wages of sin is death". It says that before we know Christ, we are dead in our sins. Now, the specific details of death/hell (whether it's eternal conscious torment, or something else) are not clear, but what is clear is that the bible claims that we do deserve it.

We avoid death, not because of our own good deeds (Romans 3:10 says "nobody is good, no not one, no one seeks after God" ), but because we believe in Jesus. Our sin is imputed to Christ, his righteousness imputed to us. Our salvation is a gift, not something deserved. In heaven, nobody will be able to say to God "thanks for giving your son, but I earned my place here..."
No you didn't. God provided so that you could be there. Otherwise you would not be in the presence of a truly holy God.

"But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
"This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins."
(edited 7 years ago)
There is an argument where if we can conceive God in our minds, then we can do the same for no God
Original post by davidguettafan
Isn't it crazy to believe in someone that doesn't exist though?


There is no evidence to disprove his existence. The notion of God is not a posteriori right or wrong, but rather a priori right or wrong. That is to say, one cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by use of empirical evidence (the evidence which I presume you are referring to). Instead, this must be concluded by rationalist induction and/or deduction. The nature of God is that we, in the human condition, do not have the ability to witness God, thus making any physical evidence to prove his existence impossible to retrieve.Also, to answer your question more directly, there is a reason it is called "faith". The believers have faith that they are right.
Original post by will.devries.9
There is no evidence to disprove his existence. The notion of God is not a posteriori right or wrong, but rather a priori right or wrong. That is to say, one cannot prove or disprove the existence of God by use of empirical evidence (the evidence which I presume you are referring to). Instead, this must be concluded by rationalist induction and/or deduction. The nature of God is that we, in the human condition, do not have the ability to witness God, thus making any physical evidence to prove his existence impossible to retrieve.Also, to answer your question more directly, there is a reason it is called "faith". The believers have faith that they are right.


The burden of proof rests on the individual making the extraordinary claim, therefore it's the responsibility of those claiming God exists to provide the evidence, not on the sceptics to disprove it. If they are unable to produce proof then there is no reason whatsoever to take their claim seriously.

And so what if it's called faith? I don't get people who use this line as some sort of justification because there is nothing noble, intelligent or rational about believing in something for which there is no evidence.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
The burden of proof rests on the individual making the extraordinary claim, therefore it's the responsibility of those claiming God exists to provide the evidence, not on the sceptics to disprove it. If they are unable to produce proof then there is no reason whatsoever to take their claim seriously.

And so what if it's called faith? I don't get people who use this line as some sort of justification because there is nothing noble, intelligent or rational about believing in something for which there is no evidence.

Appeal to ignorance.
If a person has provided evidence, then would it not be proper for said person to ask a skeptic why they are skeptical?

In which case the skeptic could explain why they say, "I do not believe your claim."

Otherwise, can you prove to me that you nor I are experiencing a world that does not exist due to stimulation of the brain?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Onde
The answer is, you don't. A supernatural phenomenon is an oxymoron. As soon as something has been observed (i.e. a phenomenon), it is necessarily a natural event.

The supernatural does not affect the natural world. If you imagine such a being, then your imagination is an aspect of the natural world, in line with the laws of nature: however, imagining a supernatural being having an effect on the natural world would be a logical impossibility. You would be giving a property (that of being supernatural) to a figment of your imagination that you supposed to be happening in the natural world, which would be absurd.


1. For someone who does not believe in anything supernatural nor our ability to observe that which may be supernatural, you seem to be an expert on how the supernatural would work if it does exist.

2. definition of supernatural is an attribute or force that is beyond scientific understanding/explanation. by definition, why would we not be able to observe that which is supernatural?

3. a natural event is often defined by an event cause by nature - not man. If some thing that is not of Earth's nature or natural world created an event or an event occurred due to non-natural means, would this not by definition disqualify such event as being "natural.?" In which case, may be done by even humans....

Thus an event observed to be caused by man or another cause may still not be a "natural event."

4. If imagination is of natural world how would imagination of a being not be of natural world? sounds contradictory to me - may you elaborate your position? I don't understand.

How is imagination of the natural world for some things but not for some other things?
Original post by Plantagenet Crown
The burden of proof rests on the individual making the extraordinary claim, therefore it's the responsibility of those claiming God exists to provide the evidence, not on the sceptics to disprove it. If they are unable to produce proof then there is no reason whatsoever to take their claim seriously.

And so what if it's called faith? I don't get people who use this line as some sort of justification because there is nothing noble, intelligent or rational about believing in something for which there is no evidence.


I agree with your key points, but it's interesting to note that historically, pretty much everyone believed in Gods plural, so when monotheist religions like Judaism and then its main offshoots, Christianity and Islam, emerged, the question wasn't about proving God existed but about claiming that *only one* God existed. That's why both of the two main holy scriptures bang on endlessly about only being the One God, etc, etc.

A lot of religious people are kind of still stuck in that mindset, because they were brought up under the influence of those scriptures, so they imagine that the struggle is still between their One God model and multi-deity (eg, wrong) models. Even within them though, they are confusing, because Satan exists in both main religions - and appears to be Godlike - and both religions also contain minor deities, eg, angels and djinns and the like.

A zero-deity model is relatively new in human affairs and not many people have been brought up in the context of it. (More in the ex-Communist world than in the non-Communist world.) So it's harder to contextualise because people don't have the mindset.

In addition, many non-believers also believe in the actions of minor deities, such as sources of divination (astrology for example), cult leaders (Scientology, Mormonism, etc), Godlike political figures (Mao, Hitler, Stalin) and low-level associate spirits such as ghosts or troublesome 'bad luck' spirits, which are widely believed in.
(edited 7 years ago)
We all have our reasons to be there

We all have a thing or two to learn

We all needed something to cling to

So we did

We all had delusions in our heads

We all had our minds made up for us

We had to believe in something

So we did
Original post by inhuman
But that is exactly what many people believe in. It is exactly why people pray. Heck there is even the entire Bible Belt in the US that teaches creationism.

And all those concepts you talk about, energy, formlessness. Those have just been interpreted into scripture by people that have realized claiming anything else would be wholly foolish. Very typical of theists. Always changing the playing field the interpretation in order to adapt to criticism. Every time we discovered more of the world, people read the Bible again and said, oh no, yes yes guys this is exactly what this passage really meant.

How deluded can you guys get?
What energy?
God isn't energy, He is a Spirit. I don't know where you got that information from, just know its wrong.
Oh yeah by the way, God exists...
Original post by Little Toy Gun
We all have our reasons to be there

We all have a thing or two to learn

We all needed something to cling to

So we did

We all had delusions in our heads

We all had our minds made up for us

We had to believe in something

So we did

You had to believe in the big bang theory?
Oh well that explains a lot...

Quick Reply

Latest

Trending

Trending