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What I don't get about feminism

Firstly, I am a feminist, it's something I feel strongly about. But I do feel that some (or even many?) individuals use feminism to the extent where it does more harm than good.

For example- How it's used to censor women.

I feel like a lot of feminists use feminism to shout a woman down when she complains about another woman. It's as if you aren't allowed to criticise another woman because how dare you slander a member of our own tribe, we are all perfect :rolleyes:

For example, I love this quote (as cheesy as it is)-




But apparently, this is wrong, and sexist. It's misogynistic and pits women against eachother.

http://www.hercampus.com/entertainment/why-i-hate-world-full-kardashians-memes

But that in itself to me is so sexist, it's borderline ironic. Because instead of looking at Kardashians and Audrey as individuals with individual qualities and flaws, it's purely looking at them from the perspective of their gender. Because they are females, they must not be criticised in anyway, or else you are being sexist.
How is that sort of blind idolisation in anyway, not sexist? Stop treating women as special snow flakes, we have ****ing flaws.

The Kardashians are the worst role models out there for girls at the minute. They suggest that the only value you have is appearance, and what you're born with isn't good enough.
Yet people are afraid of criticising the Kardashians (Anne Hathaway and Chloe Moertez were slaughtered for it) because it's considered anti-feminist.

I find that dangerous. Women should be allowed to be criticised.

I don't think I've got my point across very well at all, but I'm just annoyed with this whole social justice warfare.

Tl;dr Feminism is being used to make women feel guilty for criticising other women. And to me that is entirely counterproductive. Instead of liberating women, it's sometimes censoring them.
(edited 7 years ago)

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The quote is separating females into "kardashians" and "audreys", but they're both just stereotypes. It is grouping many females together under the "kardashian" umbrella before you even get to know them. They are all individuals who will have different qualities, talents etc and just calling them yet another kardashian clone is not feminist.
I do understand where you are coming from though.
I understand where you're coming from, honestly, I do. I strongly identify as a feminist however I feel we must be feminists from a critical angle. We cannot blindly follow the rhetoric that all women are perfect and must not be criticised, as that's simply not true and takes away from the point of feminism.

However, I'm not a huge fan of that quote. I have a great deal of respect for both the Kardashians and Audrey Hepburn. The Kardashians are businesswomen, they have created a brand for themselves that people buy into. They are confident and seem to be happy with themselves. The quote seems to be implying that it's fine to put down the Kardashians in favour of Audrey, that it's fine to slander them and think they're 'stupid' just because they aren't maybe intellectual and present a sexy public image. I don't think that's ok.

But, on the other hand, I understand what you're saying about how they may not be good role models for young girls. Living in an image-conscious world, the Kardashians are the pinnacle of image-conscious. But arguably, isn't Audrey Hepburn? People idolise her and other old Hollywood actresses like Marilyn Monroe, as beauty and sex icons.
I completely agree. There is this notion that all women should automatically support each other and route for eachother just on the basis on them being women and not on their character which I don't agree with.
Another example is when Tina Fey made a joke at an award show about Taylor Swift not being able to keep a relationship and Taylor fired back with 'there's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women.'
Like it makes no sense to me that we have to all treat each other like 'sisters' just because women are more oppressed than men.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 4
Original post by Twinpeaks
Firstly, I am a feminist, it's something I feel strongly about. But I do feel that some (or even many?) individuals use feminism to the extent where it does more harm than good.

For example- How it's used to censor women.

I feel like a lot of feminists use feminism to shout a woman down when she complains about another woman. It's as if you aren't allowed to criticise another woman because how dare you slander a member of our own tribe, we are all perfect :rolleyes:

For example, I love this quote (as cheesy as it is)-




But apparently, this is wrong, and sexist. It's misogynistic and pits women against eachother.

http://www.hercampus.com/entertainment/why-i-hate-world-full-kardashians-memes

But that in itself to me is so sexist, it's borderline ironic. Because instead of looking at Kardashians and Audrey as individuals with individual qualities and flaws, it's purely looking at them from the perspective of their gender. Because they are females, they must not be criticised in anyway, or else you are being sexist.
How is that sort of blind idolisation in anyway, not sexist? Stop treating women as special snow flakes, we have ****ing flaws.

The Kardashians are the worst role models out there for girls at the minute. They suggest that the only value you have is appearance, and what you're born with isn't good enough.
Yet people are afraid of criticising the Kardashians (Anne Hathaway and Chloe Moertez were slaughtered for it) because it's considered anti-feminist.

I find that dangerous. Women should be allowed to be criticised.

I don't think I've got my point across very well at all, but I'm just annoyed with this whole social justice warfare.

Tl;dr Feminism is being used to make women feel guilty for criticising other women. And to me that is entirely counterproductive. Instead of liberating women, it's sometimes censoring them.



I am shocked.

before I saw this post I thought you were a bloke, but from reading this thread it looks like you are not.

your writing style and argumentative style is that of a blokes. I was convinced it was a dude I was arguing with in the boyfriend shoved me thread.

do you think Feminism has made you less feminine
Reply 5
Original post by vanderwoodsen
I understand where you're coming from, honestly, I do. I strongly identify as a feminist however I feel we must be feminists from a critical angle. We cannot blindly follow the rhetoric that all women are perfect and must not be criticised, as that's simply not true and takes away from the point of feminism.

However, I'm not a huge fan of that quote. I have a great deal of respect for both the Kardashians and Audrey Hepburn. The Kardashians are businesswomen, they have created a brand for themselves that people buy into. They are confident and seem to be happy with themselves. The quote seems to be implying that it's fine to put down the Kardashians in favour of Audrey, that it's fine to slander them and think they're 'stupid' just because they aren't maybe intellectual and present a sexy public image. I don't think that's ok.

But, on the other hand, I understand what you're saying about how they may not be good role models for young girls. Living in an image-conscious world, the Kardashians are the pinnacle of image-conscious. But arguably, isn't Audrey Hepburn? People idolise her and other old Hollywood actresses like Marilyn Monroe, as beauty and sex icons.


I see what you mean, they are successful business women, but I can't help but think that's purely because of their family, because of KUWTK. They are undoubtedly inundated with business proposals all the time, they just have to be the face. Like when any celebrity does their own perfume. No one has to be a perfect role model for young people, but their public endorsements of cosmetic surgery, breast and butt implants, lip injections, facial fillers...it's just creating an attitude I find damaging. Women should be encouraged to work on their bodies in terms of fitness, but plastic surgery is just too damaging a perspective to push. I see people my age of 23 (admittedly not the brightest sparks) saying how they wish they could afford lip injections because of Kylie Jenner.

Whereas Audrey Hepburn is a beauty and sex icon yes, nothing wrong with that. But at least she was natural, had talent, and spent a significant proportion of her life working for UNICEF.
Reply 6
Original post by ANM775
I am shocked.

before I saw this post I thought you were a bloke, but from reading this thread it looks like you are not.

your writing style and argumentative style is that of a blokes. I was convinced it was a dude I was arguing with in the boyfriend shoved me thread.

do you think Feminism has made you less feminine


I've noticed that people refer to me as a guy on here all the time, I really don't understand it. That's why I've put Patsy Stone as my avatar, as a subtle hint, but people still seem to think I'm a guy...

What is it about the way I write that makes me seem like a man then??

Has feminism made me less feminine? Hah. Let's just say not in the slightest :flutter:

Original post by tcameron
I completely agree. There is this notion that all women should automatically support each other and route for eachother just on the basis on them being women and not on their character which I don't agree with.Another example is when Tina Fey made a joke at an award show about Taylor Swift not being able to keep a relationship and Taylor fired back with 'there's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women.'Like it makes no sense to me that we have to all treat each other like 'sisters' just because women are more oppressed than men.


YES!! I was going to use Taylor Swift as an example, she is the absolute worst for doing that. But it's so ironic that what she's doing is censoring Tina Fey, not allowing one of her ' sisters' to express their own opinion.
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 7
Original post by Twinpeaks
I've noticed that people refer to me as a guy on here all the time, I really don't understand it. That's why I've put Patsy Stone as my avatar, as a subtle hint, but people still seem to think I'm a guy...

What is it about the way I write that makes me seem like a man then??

Has feminism made me less feminine? Hah. Let's just say not in the slightest :flutter:



why did I think you were male?

your writing style was quite aggressive and snipey, you said I was chatting sh*t or BS. The tone of the posts was just very different from the tone women tend to take when they disagree with someone. The vocabulary was very male oriented, usually the way women write they use softer words. The way you laid out your argument was more advanced and more difficult to rebut than most, .. you put false words into my mouth too. At one point Indirectly questioned my character also.

everything about the posts just screamed I am male.

I looked at the Avatar, the thought that you may be female entered my mind but I dismissed it as it was clear the photo was a professionally taken photo of someone else. I assumed the male behind the account had put up a random female celebrity or something because he fancied her.

If you want people to think you are female you need to put up some fluffy bunnies or pink shoes or something that someone would look at and think, no way a guy would put that up there. :wink:
Original post by Twinpeaks
Firstly, I am a feminist, it's something I feel strongly about. But I do feel that some (or even many?) individuals use feminism to the extent where it does more harm than good.

For example- How it's used to censor women.

I feel like a lot of feminists use feminism to shout a woman down when she complains about another woman. It's as if you aren't allowed to criticise another woman because how dare you slander a member of our own tribe, we are all perfect :rolleyes:

For example, I love this quote (as cheesy as it is)-




But apparently, this is wrong, and sexist. It's misogynistic and pits women against eachother.

http://www.hercampus.com/entertainment/why-i-hate-world-full-kardashians-memes

But that in itself to me is so sexist, it's borderline ironic. Because instead of looking at Kardashians and Audrey as individuals with individual qualities and flaws, it's purely looking at them from the perspective of their gender. Because they are females, they must not be criticised in anyway, or else you are being sexist.
How is that sort of blind idolisation in anyway, not sexist? Stop treating women as special snow flakes, we have ****ing flaws.

The Kardashians are the worst role models out there for girls at the minute. They suggest that the only value you have is appearance, and what you're born with isn't good enough.
Yet people are afraid of criticising the Kardashians (Anne Hathaway and Chloe Moertez were slaughtered for it) because it's considered anti-feminist.

I find that dangerous. Women should be allowed to be criticised.

I don't think I've got my point across very well at all, but I'm just annoyed with this whole social justice warfare.

Tl;dr Feminism is being used to make women feel guilty for criticising other women. And to me that is entirely counterproductive. Instead of liberating women, it's sometimes censoring them.


I wish I could rep your posts more, apparently I rep you too much :rolleyes:
There is nothing wrong with that quote :/

Anyways that Audrey girl is soooo cute
I've found feminism to be very tribal. Like, if you say you're a feminist, and someone else says they're a feminist, and they disagree with your perspective on feminism or its goals, then you're "not a real feminist".

Imagine what could be accomplished if we quit the *****ing and actually worked together! ****'d be amazing.

That being said, I'd have a very hard time trying to accomplish something with someone who thinks that all sex is rape, so y'know... there are limits.

Honestly, I think feminism is what you make of it, which is why there are so many different branches of it. Some use it honestly (the true egalitarians), others use it to push their own agenda. Hence (amongst other factors) the divide.
Reply 11
I find that with you :rofl:
It's a bit funny because at first you annoyed the hell out of me in the EU referendum thread but now literally every post of yours I see, I agree with :rofl:
Reply 12
Original post by ANM775
why did I think you were male?

your writing style was quite aggressive and snipey, you said I was chatting sh*t or BS. The tone of the posts was just very different from the tone women tend to take when they disagree with someone. The vocabulary was very male oriented, usually the way women write they use softer words. The way you laid out your argument was more advanced and more difficult to rebut than most, .. you put false words into my mouth too. At one point Indirectly questioned my character also.

everything about the posts just screamed I am male.

I looked at the Avatar, the thought that you may be female entered my mind but I dismissed it as it was clear the photo was a professionally taken photo of someone else. I assumed the male behind the account had put up a random female celebrity or something because he fancied her.

If you want people to think you are female you need to put up some fluffy bunnies or pink shoes or something that someone would look at and think, no way a guy would put that up there. :wink:


Haha I'll take that advice on board! :rofl:
It seems people often bond by gossiping about other people, despite the fact everyone hates being gossiped about.


I find sometimes people are extremely self-destructive or like tearing down others.

Using feminism wouldn't be my first line of attack in stopping this behaviour but it has become a catch-all term for anything relating to women.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by vanderwoodsen
The Kardashians are businesswomen, they have created a brand for themselves that people buy into. They are confident and seem to be happy with themselves.


Stalin was a politician, created a brand for himself that people bought into, he was confident and happy with himself. He also went on a fairly famous killing spree in the name of so-called Marxism. None of your reasons justify someone's actions. Before you reply that comparing Kim Kardashian to Stalin is nonsensical - recognise that I am critiquing your reasons for justifying someone's actions. They are empty statements that can be applied to absolutely any person of wrong-doing. Creating a brand, and being confident and happy say nothing of someone's influence on the world.

Original post by vanderwoodsen
The quote seems to be implying that it's fine to put down the Kardashians in favour of Audrey, that it's fine to slander them and think they're 'stupid' just because they aren't maybe intellectual and present a sexy public image. I don't think that's ok.


Of course it's okay to criticise someone who made their fame via a sex tape, encourages an unproductive and shallow way of life and has the intellectual capacity of a toad. And of course we should be criticising a society that makes this possible and encourages it and eats it up. The human race is better than this and if you disagree you are limiting progression and need to change your worldview.

Original post by vanderwoodsen
But, on the other hand, I understand what you're saying about how they may not be good role models for young girls. Living in an image-conscious world, the Kardashians are the pinnacle of image-conscious. But arguably, isn't Audrey Hepburn? People idolise her and other old Hollywood actresses like Marilyn Monroe, as beauty and sex icons.


Do remind me how many classic pieces of cinema art Kim Kardashian has been involved in? All the charity work she has done? Remind me how they each became famous? The two aren't comparable.
You talk about being 'censored' and 'shouted down' yet all I see from your post is a short but reasoned article (even if I don't particularly agree with it) from a site I'd never heard of before. And ironically, the implicit message of your post is that they shouldn't have written the article - you're arguing for the same 'censorship' that you claim to be against?

Tell, why are your comments critical of them just 'criticism' but theirs critical of you are 'shouting down' and 'censorship'?

For the record I hate the Kardashians, and I think it's dumb for any feminist to hold them up as a role model. I've never felt remotely 'afraid' or 'shouted' down to say so. But I think the various 'PC' strawmen are even more dumb.
(edited 7 years ago)
The reason why you're not allowed to criticise the Kardashians is that they are "boss ass *****es", i.e. women who have made a lot of money by throwing their weight around and getting in people's faces in a particular domain (in this case showing pictures of themselves).

If you criticise them you are attacking a successful (that is, rich) woman, and that can't be allowed under feminism because women are a victim class who are infinitely prone to oppression, who may be felled if even one unsupportive opinion is allowed to get through.

Leave aside the fact that Kardashian has never contributed anything of value to the world, has not had to invest anything even in her own business, has not exactly worked or even lucked her way up from nothing, and only became famous because she released a sex tape of herself.

The important thing is she's a rich, successful female self-publiciser who acts boisterously, and is therefore a sort of feminist demigod, especially with demographics infected with tribal identitarian feminism, like young American women (bulk of social media users).

The idea that Kardashian can't be allowed to take criticism and detraction as it might topple her is as preposterous as the idea that God can't deal with blasphemy against himself - and comes from the same human instinct. Her protectors on Twitter are in this way sort of like the feminist versions of the Charlie Hebdo terrorists(!)
(edited 7 years ago)
The point of feminism is to support all women, trans women, women of colour, poor women, women loving women, female sex workers (not in any order!!) The point of feminism is women coming together to achieve similar/the same goals.

The quote about comparing audrey and the kardashians doesn't help feminism, because its unnecessarily causing a divide between different types of women, those who are deemed as important and worthy of their success, and those that aren't. If we do that, then trying to get equality between different types of women, and equality between men and women, isn't as effective. If one group deems themselves better than all of the others, other groups get left behind and the universal goal of equality for women is only achieved for that group, rather than for all.
Original post by epage
The point of feminism is to support all women, trans women, women of colour, poor women, women loving women, female sex workers (not in any order!!) The point of feminism is women coming together to achieve similar/the same goals.

The quote about comparing audrey and the kardashians doesn't help feminism, because its unnecessarily causing a divide between different types of women, those who are deemed as important and worthy of their success, and those that aren't. If we do that, then trying to get equality between different types of women, and equality between men and women, isn't as effective. If one group deems themselves better than all of the others, other groups get left behind and the universal goal of equality for women is only achieved for that group, rather than for all.


This post shows how confused feminism has become. You do not understand what equality is - it's not that everyone deserves the same respect or admiration or support, only the same rights and opportunities.

Of course one group is better than another. Some types of success are more admirable than others. Some types of women are better role models than others. Some types of women are more helpful to the world than others. Some women are better than others and we have to recognise that and encourage the lesser groups to decrease in size and the better groups to increase. Would you rather your daughter was a prostitute or a politician? Released a sex tape or a scientific discovery? Was less intellectual or more intellectual? Finished her life with a larger net positive influence on society or a lower one?
I admit I let myself down at times to see the comments on the Kardashian's Instagram and other related accounts and...oh my. If you criticize the fact that having your lips pumped up like a fish, your butt injected with fat (which, in clothes, looks like a nappy filled with ****), your jaw shaved, a boob job, and Botox to arch your eyebrows looks ridiculous, somehow you're the a-hole because you believe they looked better before? I love the Audrey quote. Sadly, I don't think many young people will know who she is (well, maybe from that advert). However, saying that, I think the issues more to do with the parents of the Snowflakes. Although the Kardashian's aren't good role models, they shouldn't have to be. It's less to do with the actual person - as we could be discussing an Olympian - and more to do with the celebrity worshipping culture. It's like when parents complain about Rihanna's suggestive clothing and language. Instead of being perpetually outraged and offended that their daughter's fragile little mind is being ruined by gyrating hips, perhaps sit down and explain that she is selling something; she's part of a business. She's openly admitted that she's not a role model. So I can see both sides to this debate, and I'm still not 100% sure where I stand on it :smile:

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