Londonian independence?

Scroll to see replies

I'm jealous @AlexanderHam

I visited c15 years ago and would love to go back again.

It is such an amazing and beautiful city, I'm completely smitten. And they have such an astonishing history; reading about the incredible patriotism of all Venetians and their loyalty to the republic, how they would all pull together during times of danger... it seems like such a shame that the republic was abolished by Napoleon.

They also have some amazing stories in their history and they also had a sense of humour; the Venetians used to be plagued with trouble from the neighbouring Archbishopric of Aquileia, which was a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire. The Archbishop would often harass Venice's mainland possessions or claim that the islands in the lagoon belonged to him. One of those times (in the 1200s iirc) the Republic sent troops to attack the archbishop, and he surrendered; in the treaty they agreed, the Archbishop promised in perpetuity to provide twelve fattened hogs so that each year on a particular day, the hogs would be released in the main piazza and the Venetians would chase them around and try to catch them. I think that tradition lasted something like 400 years.

They also tended to elect very old Doges (and they seemed to have incredible longevity). In the late 1100s they elected Enrico Dandolo as doge; he was already 85 and blind. But he led the Venetian fleet into battle during the Sack of Constantinople in 1205. He even beached his flagship and with sword in hand led his troops up to the walls of the city. It sounds completely improbable, but it has been confirmed by multiple sources.

While we're on the subject of independence Cheshire should consider seceding so we can regain our historic independence from Westminster. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_palatine

Ah yes, county palatinates had a huge degree of independence (though of course were still under the crown). I thought Chester was still (in a very loose and technical sense) still a kind of county palatine, isn't a member of the royal family the Earl of Chester? I say Cheshire should be able to elect an earl to be their leader

Edit: I just looked on Wikipedia and it says Chester had its own parliament until the 1500s! The "barons of the county" would be represented in it.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 21

AlexanderHam

Original post by Ljayne89

Take a leaf from Trump's book and make Brighton pay for it!

Reply 22

AlexanderHam

Original post by Plagioclase

But why??

As mentioned above, allowing London to have an independent republican constitution would allow it, in my view, to become much more prosperous. It could become a very low/no-regulation jurisdiction to attract business from all over the world, almost like China's special economic zones

Of course a Republic of Londonia, under my proposal, would still be a vassal state of the British crown and pay a very significant annual tribute, in the tens of billions, to the British government. The UK government would no longer need to provide any infrastructure subsidies to London, and I believe this new republican constitution would unleash creative and market forces that would supercharge London prosperity.

Reply 23

Plagioclase

Original post by AlexanderHam

It could become a very low/no-regulation jurisdiction to attract business from all over the world

Sounds like an absolutely dreadful idea in my view, the last thing London needs is even less regulation and more corporate influence. It's corrupt enough as it is.

Reply 24

AlexanderHam

Original post by Plagioclase

Sounds like an absolutely dreadful idea in my view, the last thing London needs is even less regulation and more corporate influence. It's corrupt enough as it is.

I'm a socialist myself and I would like the UK as a whole to be a fair and equitable place, with a decent welfare state. But I believe that we can draw lessons from history that the market can be an incredibly powerful engine for growth; the Chinese SEZs show just that.

I believe the UK could get the most benefit from London by pretty much allowing it to do its own thing Unleash those market and creative forces, and then sit back and reap the benefit as the annual tribute (a tax, effectively) allows the UK government to cash in on London's supercharged prosperity.

Reply 25

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by AlexanderHam

I suppose if you have a particularly rigid mind the suggestion might make you feel uncomfortable. Speculative political ideas? What is this sorcery...

@KimKallstrom @QE2 @KingBradly

anarchism101 is an anarchist. I'm not sure you can get much more unrigid.

Reply 26

JamesN88

We could build a Jurassic Park style perimeter fence at the M25 and charge people to cross. :biggrin:

Reply 27

AlexanderHam

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

anarchism101 is an anarchist. I'm not sure you can get much more unrigid.

The fact that someone identifies as an anarchist does not therefore mean they are incapable of dogmatic or rigid thinking.

Reply 28

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by AlexanderHam

The fact that someone identifies as an anarchist does not therefore mean they are incapable of dogmatic or rigid thinking.

I suppose. But they tend to be open to ideas of decentralisation by definition. They are dogmatically decentralist.

Reply 29

the bear

who let the Doges out ?

Reply 30

AlexanderHam

Original post by JamesN88

We could build a Jurassic Park style perimeter fence at the M25 and charge people to cross. :biggrin:

Ha! If only we could procure some dinosaurs to patrol the fence. Then again, cassowaries are pretty fierce. They are like modern-day velociraptors

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassowary#Relationship_with_humans

They have extremely sharp claws on their feet and can kick very high, which can open up your jugular vein. A 16 year old boy in Australia unfortunately died after he and his brother decided to club a cassowary to death and it fought back,

Reply 31

Rakas21

What your talking about sounds more like extreme autonomy than independence but at any rate my thought is the same.. i'd sooner send in the armed forces to remove the traitors by force than cede London.

It's bad enough that the city is no longer majority British but the idea we'd detach ourselves from our capital and simply accept that it's no longer ours is repulsive.

Reply 32

anarchism101

Original post by AlexanderHam

I suppose if you have a particularly rigid mind the suggestion might make you feel uncomfortable. Speculative political ideas? What is this sorcery...

It doesn't make me uncomfortable, I'm just quite surprised that someone would seriously advocate a literal oligarchy nowadays. Also, not so much a speculative idea as a really old one that's been discussed in various forms since the classical era. It's in the same category of polities, along with the Roman Republic, looked back at by liberal Enlightenment thinkers with rose-tinted glasses before democracy spread.

Reply 33

user 42005

Interesting idea (will probably never happen), and I can see how it would economically benefit London to do so. But how would it benefit the rest of the UK? If the Republic of Londonia collects its own tax receipts, then even with substantial financial contributions to the UK it's going to leave a black hole in the rest of the country's finances. I'm not sure if the rest of the country could survive without London, as even other major cities such as Manchester, Birmingham etc. just simply don't have the clout to operate on the global stage. Hmm... can you outline a bit more precisely what the relationship between London and the rest of the UK would be, just to provide me with a bit of transparency? I can perhaps see an argument for greater autonomy, but not independence. What would the UK be if it lost its capital city?

Reply 34

Wōden

Original post by AlexanderHam

London is more on route to becoming the Khanate of Londonistan than the Republic of Londonia.

Reply 35

anarchism101

Original post by Wōden

London is more on route to becoming the Khanate of Londonistan than the Republic of Londonia.

Do you know what the term "Khanate" actually means?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 36

Wōden

Original post by anarchism101

Do you know what the term "Khanate" actually means?

Posted from TSR Mobile

Yes, I do.

Reply 37

Buonaparte

The UK needs London more than London needs the UK, but I don't think independence is a plausible idea, at least not in the near future.

Original post by AlexanderHam

I believe the UK could get the most benefit from London by pretty much allowing it to do its own thing Unleash those market and creative forces, and then sit back and reap the benefit as the annual tribute (a tax, effectively) allows the UK government to cash in on London's supercharged prosperity.

Well, that would be a nice idea, if we had a government that actually cared about cracking down on tax evasion and avoidance.

Original post by Rakas21

So edgy.

Reply 38

JamesN88

Original post by AlexanderHam

Ha! If only we could procure some dinosaurs to patrol the fence. Then again, cassowaries are pretty fierce. They are like modern-day velociraptors

**** me they look vicious, sounds like a plan.

Walls are so last millennium. :smile:

Reply 39

AlexanderHam

Original post by anarchism101

It's not wholly serious, but I think it is a good vehicle through which to discuss how to increase London's prosperity and consider alternative forms of governance.

Regarding an old idea; guilty as charged. I believe London would do well to emulate that ancient and noble republic La Serenissima, the Venetians. I wouldn't advocate a closed-system oligarchy; anyone could join the ranks of the London patricians as part of a great council of the city. I would suggest up to 1,000 members of great individual merit or as representatives of their respective guilds or professions. It would be a meritocratic oligarchy. And remember, I only propose this for London; as a socialist I wouldn't want such a thing for the UK as a whole.

But I believe Magna Carta expresses an important principle in the clause that promises to respect the ancient rights and customs of the city; it was recognition of London's singular and unique importance. In my view, anything that increases Londonian prosperity benefits the entire country. Surely if we allowed London to become a merchant republic with extremely low taxes and regulation, it could hoover up so much financial business from other centres like Frankfurt that the city would be able to pay larger and larger tributes to the state each year. Allow the free market to run wild within this strictly delineated zone, and then sit back and take our cut which can be spent on social services, welfare, pensions, investments in supporting our manufacturing and exports... win/win?