Londonian independence?

London is more on route to becoming the Khanate of Londonistan than the Republic of Londonia.

True. We do need to be careful, if Muslim growth rates (both birth and immigration) continue on their present course, within a few generations they would be fully a quarter of the population. And with that number of people, they could easily form an Islamist party with great clout in parliament, which would demand ever greater concessions.

The UK needs London more than London needs the UK, but I don't think independence is a plausible idea, at least not in the near future.

Well, that would be a nice idea, if we had a government that actually cared about cracking down on tax evasion and avoidance.

Yes, I do.

It's not wholly serious, but I think it is a good vehicle through which to discuss how to increase London's prosperity and consider alternative forms of governance.

Regarding an old idea; guilty as charged. I believe London would do well to emulate that ancient and noble republic La Serenissima, the Venetians. I wouldn't advocate a closed-system oligarchy; anyone could join the ranks of the London patricians as part of a great council of the city. I would suggest up to 1,000 members of great individual merit or as representatives of their respective guilds or professions. It would be a meritocratic oligarchy.

The UK needs London more than London needs the UK, but I don't think independence is a plausible idea, at least not in the near future.
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I just got back from a week in Venice, which was absolutely marvellous. This post will be about Londonian independence, but I will get there circuitously via Venetian history. It's a long post so put the kettle on, or click the back button or something.

Anyway, re Venice... As if it wasn't cool enough that the city has no cars and its main streets are water instead, the city also has an incredible history. The city was founded in 421 AD by refugees who were fleeing from barbarians on the mainland; they went out into the Venetian lagoon and settled on a group of marshy, salty, flood-prone islands.

From 421 until 1798, the Venetians developed their society such that they were completely oriented toward the sea and to trading. They had their own dialect of Italian and in many ways considered themselves to be more a part of Byzantium (whose nominal vassal they were) than a part of Italian polities. The Venetians had trading interests that spread from the Adriatic and Italy through to the Eastern Mediterranean (Turkey, Palestine, Egypt) and far beyond. They traded with the Mongols and with China, and in the 1300s they even had a resident trade envoy in Thailand, at a time when most Europeans knew nothing about what was east of the Levant

The Venetians became a merchant republic, with a very unique and singular sort of national pride in their characteristics; "We are a sea people, not a land people". There's little doubt the Venetians were the greatest seafaring race until the rise of the British Empire.

Their republic, called the Serene Republic (or La Serenissima), was headed by an elected monarch called the Doge (pronounced "daw-jay". However, he was mainly a figurehead and power was held by a group of legislatures and councils. They had incredibly strict rules to prevent anyone from becoming a despot or to have too much power to acrrue in the hands of any person or family.

They had a patrician nobility, however these were not feudal landlords but a nobility of the greatest merchant families. The Venetians had great pride in their constitution; although their political system was quite oligarchical (the main plenary body was the Great Council, a body with about 1,500 members of all the male members of the greatest trading families), the Venetian nobility ruled in a very selfless manner and always in the interests of the republic. They ruthlessly stamped out any corruption and the great pride of the Venetians in their constitution, and their pride in their uniqueness, meant the nobility had instilled in them from birth that they had to always act in the best interests of the republic. To ensure that doge elections could not be stitched up, they made it extremely complex;



Anyway, having been immersed in their history for the last week, I have wondered whether we might consider Londonian independence. The City of London is politically constituted in a way that is closest to La Serenissima of any in existence today; it is a sort of oligarchical merchant polity (in the City of London, 80% of votes are held by corporations and only 20% by residents). They also have a very complex system of guilds, councils, and elections (if you want to see an awesome short video on it, see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c)

I was thinking, maybe London (not just the City, but the whole metropolis) could also become an oligarchical merchant republic? The United Kingdom would cede the metropolis of London to the City, and allow it to become a republic headed by a Lord Mayor who would be an elective monarch for life (but they would have to have a minimum age of 70 so they wouldn't live too long, and would also be wise). The Republic of Londonia would still be under the suzerainty of the British crown, and in exchange for the granting of our independence, and in consideration of Londonia's vassalage, we would would pay an annual tribute of perhaps £30 billion to £40 billion. The United Kingdom would continue to control the Republic of Londonia's defence and foreign relations needs. Perhaps Londonia could also join the EU (although I would be against it if the EU wanted to strangle the Republic with useless regulations and red tape).

Also, those parts of Westminster encompassing the Palace of Westminster, Westminster Abbey, the Supreme Court at Guildhall, all of the civil service departments along Whitehall, along with the Mall and Buckingham Palace, woudl remain a United Kingdom enclave within the Republic. Venice also had an empire encompassing the Dalmatian coasts (Croatia, basically), parts of Greece, Crete as well as an independent colony in Constantinople and special trading rights throughout Byzantium. Perhaps the United Kingdom could cede British Overseas Territories like the Channel Islands, Manx, the Cayman Islands, Bermuda and so on so that these territories with significant financial industries could become Londonia's overseas empire and add to its financial clout.

I'm not totally wedded to the idea, but not completely against either. I think it's an interesting and stimulating idea, and I am in favour of anything that permits us to emulate the Venetians. What do you think?

Venice is stinky, poor, and squalid.

Hahaha. Currency specualtion, hedge funds, elling property to dodgy foreginers,a nd making nothing, with white people being wiped out and even more ineqaultiy than the UK as a whole, where it is chronic.

It is such an amazing and beautiful city, I'm completely smitten. And they have such an astonishing history; reading about the incredible patriotism of all Venetians and their loyalty to the republic, how they would all pull together during times of danger... it seems like such a shame that the republic was abolished by Napoleon.

They also have some amazing stories in their history and they also had a sense of humour; the Venetians used to be plagued with trouble from the neighbouring Archbishopric of Aquileia, which was a vassal of the Holy Roman Empire. The Archbishop would often harass Venice's mainland possessions or claim that the islands in the lagoon belonged to him. One of those times (in the 1200s iirc) the Republic sent troops to attack the archbishop, and he surrendered; in the treaty they agreed, the Archbishop promised in perpetuity to provide twelve fattened hogs so that each year on a particular day, the hogs would be released in the main piazza and the Venetians would chase them around and try to catch them. I think that tradition lasted something like 400 years.

They also tended to elect very old Doges (and they seemed to have incredible longevity). In the late 1100s they elected Enrico Dandolo as doge; he was already 85 and blind. But he led the Venetian fleet into battle during the Sack of Constantinople in 1205. He even beached his flagship and with sword in hand led his troops up to the walls of the city. It sounds completely improbable, but it has been confirmed by multiple sources.



Ah yes, county palatinates had a huge degree of independence (though of course were still under the crown). I thought Chester was still (in a very loose and technical sense) still a kind of county palatine, isn't a member of the royal family the Earl of Chester? I say Cheshire should be able to elect an earl to be their leader

Edit: I just looked on Wikipedia and it says Chester had its own parliament until the 1500s! The "barons of the county" would be represented in it.

why you copy and pasting facts from wikipedia though?

What are you babbling about? Are you drunk?

If I were drunk, TSR would be the last place I would be at

Ah, so you're just naturally confused. Maybe you have Alzheimers?