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If the burqa is a form of oppression, then so are bikinis?

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Original post by ed98
I don't get your point.

Looking at the history of the two garment proves you incorrect. The bikini was part of the sexual revolution and embodies freedom.

The burqa was used as a form of control and was forced upon women during the Islamic revolution.


Looking at history, the burqa was introduced to protect women, and it embodies modesty and dedication to God*.
Original post by Ladbants
I'm talking about in non Islamic countries like the UK where women choose to wear the burqa. People still call that oppression but one could argue that bikinis have also been forced on women through TV and the media which cause women to think that it's what they are expected to wear even if they're not comfortable in it.


The niqab/burqa/hijab only becomes oppressed when women are forced to wear it, if they choose to it's fine but sone women in the UK are still forced (plenty of tsr threads on it)
one is supposed to be the "modern" equivalent of a cultural chastity belt and the other, well, isn't...
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by tamanna___
Idk who said it in this thread but *correction* even if men didnt exist women would still wear burqas..

And yes some people are forced to wear it, but 99.9% of the time in the UK, no one is forced, im 16 and i want to wear one, and niqaab, its part our religion, im not oppressed, i wear a hijab too, not because any one told me to, but because i want to.. for my lord.

Im not oppressed, not being forced or anything, its just what i want.


Why do you want to wear it?

Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by Moonstruck16
Why do you want to wear it?

Posted from TSR Mobile


I want to wear it to better myself, for my lord, wearing it will make me feel more modest, i already wear hijab, now i need to work on my clothes, my religion teaches modesty and i would like to follow it..
Original post by tamanna___
Idk who said it in this thread but *correction* even if men didnt exist women would still wear burqas..

And yes some people are forced to wear it, but 99.9% of the time in the UK, no one is forced, im 16 and i want to wear one, and niqaab, its part our religion, im not oppressed, i wear a hijab too, not because any one told me to, but because i want to.. for my lord.

Im not oppressed, not being forced or anything, its just what i want.


"99.9% no one is forced to wear one" . Where do you get that figure from? You may be right, but I find that hard to believe.
Original post by Zamestaneh
Looking at history, the burqa was introduced to protect women, and it embodies modesty and dedication to God*.


Besides sunburn, what exactly does the burqa protect women from?
The difference is choice. In islamic culture, women are forced to wear the burqa/niqab/hijab. Meanwhile, in western countries, a woman can choose whether she wants to wear a bikini, or a one piece swimsuit, or a tankini or even a wetsuit if that is her choice.
Original post by Seamus123
"99.9% no one is forced to wear one" . Where do you get that figure from? You may be right, but I find that hard to believe.


Its a fact from experience, im muslim so i know, however other people are on the outside looking in, believe it or not, most of usbyoung muslim girls see, ladies in burqa and nikaab and say 'inshaAllah one day' we look up to them and aspire to be as strong as them, were never really forced, some households do say you should wear it or it is better to, but most, e.g mine, doesnt mind.. my mum still tells me your too young to wear scarf, you should wear it after your married dont you think? And i just say no mum i want to wear it
Experience doesn't make facts.
Original post by mkap
ok so what about nuns then?


Nuns are different although there is still no real reason they should cover up.For one thing nuns are not just ordinary members of the clergy,they take vows.They dont marry wheras muslim women do.
I'm more willing to accept that nuns do make a choice to cover up but I dont think the same applys to muslim women.Muslims have a much more insular community and if a woman doesnt cover up she is likely to be frowned upon.Habits also dont cover up the face wheras burqas do.Burqas also developed in the middle east where it tends to be much hotter.If you want to see why burqas are such a bad thing you only have to look at the middle east where the laws against women are oppressive.Just because a small minority of muslim women in the uk feel they have a choice in wearing it doesn't make it less oppressive.
Original post by scarlett1975
a women's butt is literally fat yet she has to cover it. Why is fat on a man's body not treated in the same way.


its not "litterally fat", its muscle and fat. boobs and butts are sexualised in our brains surely if the muscle and fat in our butts and chests was sexualised in your brains then we would have to cover up.
Original post by Quantex
Besides sunburn, what exactly does the burqa protect women from?


Unwanted attention from men.
My friends mom wears the burqa and if anything, her husband/family are encouraging her not to wear it. Ask any woman you see on the street if shes being oppressed or being forced into wearing the burqa, take a poll and that is the only true way of finding out. My mom forces my sister to cover up when she goes out dressed like a sl*g as do many mothers, are we suddenly going to have an outcry that these girls are oppressed?? Let women wear what they want for a change and stop assuming that because you read something on DailyMail, it has to be true. Thank you and to all my Muslim freinds out there, peace and just do you cuz the way this countrys going, you wont be able to do you for much longer :frown: <3
Reply 34
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bj_945
18
Original post by Ladbants
I'm talking about in non Islamic countries like the UK where women choose to wear the burqa. People still call that oppression but one could argue that bikinis have also been forced on women through TV and the media which cause women to think that it's what they are expected to wear even if they're not comfortable in it.


I think there are two separate arguments made ref. the "oppression" of the burka/bikini.

1) Girls/women are expected by society to wear the bikini/burka. The resulting societal pressure indirectly "forces" them to wear the relevant piece of clothing. Both pieces of clothing define women by/highlight their sexuality. However:

a) Society "forcing" a woman to wear the burka prevents a woman from expressing her sexuality (which is a significant part of nearly every human's psyche and personhood).

b) Society "forcing" a woman to wear a bikini forces a woman to express herself by reference to her sexuality.

So arguably both are a form of oppression in that women are not "free" (in the sense of there being an absence of significant social pressure) agents with regard to expressing their sexuality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In theory I think it is possible for both of these to be acts of "oppression" in the sense of limiting freedom. However, in reality I think this is not how things generally stand. To consider the real-life context:

I think it is not fair to equate the bikini in the West with the burka in Islamic countries, because many Islamic countries are extremely patriarchal: if a woman were to refuse to wear the hijab in Iran they would be prosecuted, for example.

Taking the case of Britain/British Muslims, I still do not think it is fair to equate the two because the direct familial/social pressure placed on young girls to wear the hijab/burka in many cases will be far greater than the direct familial/social pressure placed on girls to wear bikinis.

It would really be a very strange/unusual situation for a British parent to be angry at a teenage daughter for refusing to wear a bikini in contemporary Britain. It would be much less unusual for a British Muslim parent to be angry at a teenage daughter for refusing to wear a hijab. If this is true, British Muslim girls are under more pressure and "oppression". This does not mean this is necessarily true in every case.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

2) Another relevant issue is broader conceptions such as the place of sexuality in human nature, and how this relates to our place in the (God's?) world. Many would say, and here I would agree, that sexuality is an ultimately irrepressible part of what it is to be human, and by forcing people to conceal it you are fighting human nature. This is likely to cause feelings of guilt, frustration and anger. As a result, society perhaps has a duty to bring sexuality out into the open rather than to keep it shut up. This was the shift in attitudes that took place during the sexual revolution.

Without God and divine law entering the picture, I can't see a way of arguing that society deeming it necessary to repress sexuality/keep it (literally) under wraps in an age of contraception, good understandings of sexual health issues etc. is a good thing.

So to conclude
Bikini>Burka
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 35
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bj_945
18
Original post by jamesmcjamesface
My friends mom wears the burqa and if anything, her husband/family are encouraging her not to wear it. Ask any woman you see on the street if shes being oppressed or being forced into wearing the burqa, take a poll and that is the only true way of finding out. My mom forces my sister to cover up when she goes out dressed like a sl*g as do many mothers, are we suddenly going to have an outcry that these girls are oppressed?? Let women wear what they want for a change and stop assuming that because you read something on DailyMail, it has to be true. Thank you and to all my Muslim freinds out there, peace and just do you cuz the way this countrys going, you wont be able to do you for much longer :frown: <3


But there are different conceptions of freedom. Some might argue that even if people directly around s.o do not want them to wear the burka, there is still a wider sense in which women are socially obliged to do so.

Beyond that, there is also the idea that religion itself is an oppressive force that causes women to be treated according to standards formulated many centuries ago. Women's place in society was far less powerful at the time of the arrival of Judaism/Christianity/Islam than it is now due to advances in industry and contraception, giving women the power to work and choose when to have children, and many religious women are still being held back from achieving their full potential as a result of these texts.

In this case, religion, and the institution of the burka, might be an oppressive force for women regardless of whether they were freely choosing to believe in and observe it.

You have to address these concerns, too, if you want to claim that the burka is not oppressive. Proving that personal freedom exists in the narrow sense of the absence of direct coercion/family pressure is not necessarily sufficient
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 36
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bj_945
18
Original post by Zamestaneh
Looking at history, the burqa was introduced to protect women, and it embodies modesty and dedication to God*.


Don't you think that the concept of protecting women by covering them up (protect from whom? from men? from themselves? from God?) is itself heavily patriarchal?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Zamestaneh
Unwanted attention from men.


[video="youtube;BLikP6BDH5w"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLikP6BDH5w[/video]
Original post by bj_945
Don't you think that the concept of protecting women by covering them up (protect from whom? from men? from themselves? from God?) is itself heavily patriarchal?


Nope. Anyways, I am not one to care for people's subjective objections and disagreements.
in the middle east, women are *forced* to wear the niqab. or at least, the veil. same thing, generally - one is just more radical.
where are women *forced* to wear a bikini? where is it appropriate to wear one other than at the beach where men similarly wear trunks?
the bikini makes women actually look very attractive because you can see their bodies, whereas the niqab takes all of the feminine power away from women by robbing them of their natural influence and power. this is the thing: men do not have this natural power of beauty. women do. if there is any feminist doctrine that is overdue for creation, it's the one that revolves around the fact that women are powerful in that they have this influence that men naturally don't, which is why men have had to work harder in human history compared to women, regardless of laws. so to make (basically force) a woman wear the niqab is to disarm her of that power.

I laugh at people who think a bikini is oppressive, because, like I said before, who is even compelling women to wear it in regular society?! if you see a woman wearing a bikini: think: where was the picture taken? the beach? at a swimming pool? exactly. where do you see women wearing a niqab usually? in the streets? yes. so obviously the niqab is compelled upon women in regular society, not in specific contexts like a bikini is more expected. but if you're going to dispute my narrative of the natural female body being powerful for women themselves, is that to say that a man's body is just as influential? lol really? so why aren't men stripping for tonnes of money like women have the wilful ability to do?
(edited 7 years ago)

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