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TSR Med Students' Society Part VI

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Original post by nexttime
A few independent people have posted the supposed frontpage from the Independent for tomorrow morning which says it. Medics to be fined if they work abroad inside the first 4 years.

If its true I would a) strongly advocate striking again, and striking hard - this would mess up doctor's training so much and b) tell everyone and anyone I can to not study medicine. Four years where you are being essentially obliged to work for the NHS, no matter the conditions they place upon you, is absolutely absolutely unacceptable.


Would it be enforceable though? You couldn't just suddenly declare that thousands of people can't go and work abroad or work elsewhere. Fair enough if you sign up that way, but they can't just do it part way through. Especially as we haven't received a free education or wage in exchange.
And I would be tempted to save up the fine and just say **** you I can go where I want.
Original post by ForestCat
Would it be enforceable though? You couldn't just suddenly declare that thousands of people can't go and work abroad or work elsewhere. Fair enough if you sign up that way, but they can't just do it part way through. Especially as we haven't received a free education or wage in exchange.


Well call me naive, but surely surely it will be for people who haven't applied to med school yet. Not that that's any better really.

Surely.
Original post by ForestCat
And I would be tempted to save up the fine and just say **** you I can go where I want.


Indeed!

Original post by nexttime
Well call me naive, but surely surely it will be for people who haven't applied to med school yet. Not that that's any better really.

Surely.


Studying medicine is a career that does and should be able to take you most places if you want to. For him to put restrictions on that can not be justified. Most medics stay in the UK, and I would imagine would continue to do so. But being made to feel like it is out of obligation rather than choice won't do much for morale.

I'm not sure you'd be able to convince those that were staying anyway to strike to help the few keen on leaving...

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Original post by nexttime
Well call me naive, but surely surely it will be for people who haven't applied to med school yet. Not that that's any better really.

Surely.


That sad thing is, there are enough keen (dare I say naive) 17 or 18 year olds who would think that is ok and would sign up to it because they want to be Doctors and save the world.
I think it would pretty much mean the end to grad courses. Except for those people who apply straight from undergrad. You certainly wouldn't get anyone over about 25 thinking that 4 years conscription sounds reasonable.
Original post by Newtothis83
Indeed!



Studying medicine is a career that does and should be able to take you most places if you want to. For him to put restrictions on that can not be justified. Most medics stay in the UK, and I would imagine would continue to do so. But being made to feel like it is out of obligation rather than choice won't do much for morale.

I'm not sure you'd be able to convince those that were staying anyway to strike to help the few keen on leaving...

Posted from TSR Mobile


I don't know. Whilst people might not have plans to leave, being told you cannot leave tends to rub people the wrong way. The great thing about medicine is it gives you a lot of options and choice about where you want to work in the world. People won't want to lose that option (I know that its not permanent but I know that fy3 or early breaks in training are getting more and more popular).
Original post by nexttime
A few independent people have posted the supposed frontpage from the Independent for tomorrow morning which says it. Medics to be fined if they work abroad inside the first 4 years.

If its true I would a) strongly advocate striking again, and striking hard - this would mess up doctor's training so much and b) tell everyone and anyone I can to not study medicine. Four years where you are being essentially obliged to work for the NHS, no matter the conditions they place upon you, is absolutely absolutely unacceptable.


Unlikely to be enforceable though, surely? Unless this a strange way of wording "GMC to charge stupidly excessive amount for Cert of Good Standing required for overseas work"... Given how Massey is in Hunt's pocket anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's the way they play it.*
And at the same time apparently they're announcing an extra 1500 medical school places? :eyeball: This comes a day after JH's Mail on Sunday interview about wanting to replace EU trained doctors with "homegrown talent"...sounds like he wants to create a legion of overworked wage slave doctors without EU passports and no way out...
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by nexttime
Rumours that hunt is going to try to introduce 4 years conscription for med students post-graduation...


Shock horror, trade union concessions lead to stronger government action. Gee

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Original post by ForestCat
Would it be enforceable though? You couldn't just suddenly declare that thousands of people can't go and work abroad or work elsewhere. Fair enough if you sign up that way, but they can't just do it part way through. Especially as we haven't received a free education or wage in exchange.


Judging from the last court cases....

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Dissertation work started and I already have enough...why would anyone chose to intercalate!? (at UoN we have to do another degree) :frown:
Reply 671
Avatar for Rcsed
Rcsed
Any former Imperial ibsc'ers that did Management that I could talk to here!? :smile:
The free market has failed Hunt on doctor supply vs demand, so now he's on about nationalising doctors themselves. Who'd have expected that from a Tory?
Reply 673
Avatar for hopes
hopes
10
Original post by Maxxie
I lost East Anglia, and had to contact the Oriel people to get it back lol.


how did you contact them? Realised a mistake on mine but already submitted the application so couldn't change it!*
I'm actually not against a limited period of mandatory working for the NHS since training is still heavily subsidised but I think 4 years is too much and puts you 2 years into a training programme. It should be 2 years at most.
Can see many choosing to study medicine outside of the UK as a result of this though.

1500 extra places at med school is great, what a shame is a decade too late...
Reply 675
Avatar for Beska
Beska
21
Realistically, most people work for the NHS anyway. My concern is that there's obviously going to be a change where most people won't work for the NHS - which is concerning. Compulsory work just antagonises the workforce..:
I love how the bbc just casually slips in that medical students will be expected to work for the nhs for 4 years afterwards. That's a pretty big thing to be signing up for.

Extra places is great. But it's not really that simple. Is every medical school just going to increase numbers by 25% or are there going to be new medical schools? How are they physically going to accommodate them in lecture theatres etc? Are there enough attached placement hospitals? From what I gather, London hospitals are already fairly saturated, can they cope with the extra and everyone get a good learning experience?
Is he going to increase foundation places? Or are people going to end up with the real possibility of no job at the end of it?
It will cost more but we'll just charge foreign students more? Why would anyone want to come when we're acting the way we are (with brexit and chasing out 'foreign trained' doctors). And we're going to charge them an absolute fortune for the pleasure of coming here.

Is this just going to bring us back to a huge bottleneck in training again ten years down the line?

Again, Hunt is trying to fix a complex situation with a pretty plaster. It's not that simple.

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Original post by ForestCat

Is he going to increase foundation places? Or are people going to end up with the real possibility of no job at the end of it?


This is usually the kind of foresight that gets lost in these plans.

Interestingly, however, this year we have had nearly 10 FY1 vacancies that went unfilled, to the point where the trust is advertising non-training FY1 posts throughout the year. This means we're routinely having days during the week where there isn't a house officer on call (which doesn't bode well given the amount of SHO and reg vacancies that co-exist). This is largely due to the fact that locum rates are about that of a bank HCA.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by Becca-Sarah
Unlikely to be enforceable though, surely? Unless this a strange way of wording "GMC to charge stupidly excessive amount for Cert of Good Standing required for overseas work"... Given how Massey is in Hunt's pocket anyway, I wouldn't be too surprised if that's the way they play it.*


Nah it is very easy huge fine. Don't pay it then well...No return until the UK until you do. Most people don't want to cut ties completely.

*
*
Original post by Etomidate
This is usually the kind of foresight that gets lost in these plans.

Interestingly, however, this year we have had nearly 10 FY1 vacancies that went unfilled, to the point where the trust is advertising non-training FY1 posts throughout the year. This means we're routinely having days during the week where there isn't a house officer on call (which doesn't bode well given the amount of SHO and reg vacancies that co-exist). This is largely due to the fact that locum rates are about that of a bank HCA.


Yup we have some. Some specialties made the amazing solution of just getting rid of twilight shifts. One team now routinely runs on half the doctors it did when I was there a year ago when it was busy but enjoyable. Now....

Our Locum rates have held up for now...*
Original post by hopes
how did you contact them? Realised a mistake on mine but already submitted the application so couldn't change it!*


[email protected]

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