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The I-SOC (Islamic Society) XIII

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With all respect, what is this based on?

The Hadith of both Sunnis and Shias are man made and when it comes to provenance, both have the same reliability. Why trust certain sources over others?

Well in terms of their underlying ideology, Sufis are a lot more peaceful than Salafis. The amount of bitterness, anger and hatred I have seen in Salafis towards fellow human beings is almost incomparable.

On the basis that they believe they follow the example of the Ahlul Bayt and believe that we (Sunnis) reject their divinely appointed position, and we believe in Islam as understood by the Rashidun Caliphs, the Sahabah the Tabi'een and the Tabi-tabi'een. As according to their belief we reject the Imamate concept as well as their understanding of the Quran, we are deviants, and I believe there are Shia hadith which support this. According to our belief, they commit various forms of Kufr and innovation which go against the Quran and hadith and are therefore deviants.

Shia hadith are less trust worthy (from a least biased perspective as possible) for the following reasons:

- From what I have read, their books and study of Rajjal is an infant in comparison to Sunni Rajjal studies, thus they have less knowledge about narrators of hadith and in the beginning often had to rely on Sunni Rajjal to verify their own hadith. I think their first proper book of Rajjal only came after 900 AH, which is extremely late.

- Shia have often had to live in secrecy to prevent persecution, so I would argue that logically they are less reliable as each person in chains of narration would be less known.

- I remember reading a discussion where a Shi'i was saying there are Shia who were allegedly considered extreme and/or exaggerators by the Imams, but from my understanding, even if they got sent away and rejected by one Imam, they could come back when the next Imam had taken over and they would be acceptable to narrate from.

- Hadith often don't go back to the Prophet (SAW), instead they end at the Imams.

- Some of their hadith teach kufr and bidah i.e. the Imams teaching things which either go against the Quran or the Prophet (SAW) never did them, thus brining into question the reliability of Shia hadith.

Regarding the reliability of hadith in general (which you elaborated on in another post), that will be handled later.

My point about Sufis is that everyone has the capability to be harsh.
The reason why Salafism seems harsher is because it is the belief which tries to revert to the core teachings of Islam as understood by its founders which therefore involves rejecting and working against every single innovation and corrupt belief which has been made in the last 1400 years, and this naturally antagonises many and does indeed cause bitterness as people are continuing to corrupt Islam.

Reply 3001

Boondock Saint

Original post by Zamestaneh

From what I have read, their books and study of Rajjal is an infant in comparison to Sunni Rajjal studies, thus they have less knowledge about narrators of hadith and in the beginning often had to rely on Sunni Rajjal to verify their own hadith. I think their first proper book of Rajjal only came after 900 AH, which is extremely late.

The Akhbaris (the early Shia) took their hadiths at face value insisting that everything in collections such as al-Kafi is entirely sound regardless of what the chains of transmission may look like. It was only when the Akhbaris lost power and the Usoolis took over in later years, did they begin to copy the 'Sunni rijal method' and develop their own, but even al-Kulayni (the author of al-Kafi) himself writes in his introduction of the hadith compilation that everything in it is sahih and can be relied upon. In other words, the early Shia simply accepted their hadiths on blind faith until a more rational understanding of their sect emerged and became prominent.

Reply 3002

h333

Original post by mariachi

thanks for your views. I was of course answering a post which referred to the Syrian situation

in my view, and in the present context (Syrian crisis), saying that there is a "religious war" going on against Muslims, conducted by alawites, rafidhi and Russians, means in practice : conducted by alawites, jaafari twelvers (in particular, Hizbullah and Iranians) and Russians

in short, it means that a substantial part of Shias are not simple "rejectors", but enemies of Islam and Muslims

however, as per the well-known mariachi rule, this will be my last post on the subject on this thread

ah, and, of course : best :smile:

Good you remembered "best".....but I think you meant "IdeasForLife" :smile:

Original post by Boondock Saint

One thing I find funny from (who I would presume to be) modern Usoolis is that if you ask them about if someone says the Quran is corrupted and has verses added/taken/changed, then they will agree that such a person is a Kafir; then you quote Al-Kalyni or another scholar who wrote some of the classical foundational books of the Shia, where they say that the Quran has been corrupted or altered, then they flail and try to quickly say "Oh, but that was just his ijtihad which he did incorrectly" or some other similar excuse :lol:

Reply 3005

ash92:)

Original post by h333

Reply 3006

h333

Original post by HAnwar

Lol does picking on others here make you feel good about your sorry self?
Get back to your pathetic society.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Looks they pick on this society because we are slightly more tolerant. Otherwise, other societies on tsr would not tolerate this at all.

Reply 3007

Zamestaneh

Original post by h333

Looks they pick on this society because we are slightly more tolerant. Otherwise, other societies on tsr would not tolerate this at all.

Inb4 one of the anti-Muslims put "tolerant" in bold followed by a few rofl smilies and mocking :rolleyes:

Reply 3008

HAnwar

Original post by h333

Looks they pick on this society because we are slightly more tolerant. Otherwise, other societies on tsr would not tolerate this at all.

Tramps.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 3009

h333

Original post by Zamestaneh

Inb4 one of the anti-Muslims put "tolerant" in bold followed by a few rofl smilies and mocking :rolleyes:

They can if they want. The only difference is we let them express their views on here for a fair while/posts, but if we do the same, they will start mocking straight away and say "Go away, we don't need your opinions etc"

It is as if we Muslims have to let non-Muslims say what they want about us and we have to allow it, in order to prevent fingers pointed at us and give justice to Islam through our behaviour etc. If it was not for Islam, we would have been telling them to go away etc in a very mean manner already by now. However, islam is better and does not teach us this, especially mocking or engaging in mockery by purpose.

Original post by HAnwar

Tramps.

Posted from TSR Mobile

Let's stay calm :h:

This just came to my mind lol:

Reply 3012

h333

Original post by junayd1998

Assalaamu Alaykum :smile:

hope you are fine.

Reply 3013

Zamestaneh

Original post by junayd1998

Wa 'aleykum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatu :smile:

Reply 3014

HAnwar

Original post by h333

Let's stay calm :h:

This just came to my mind lol:

JZK

x

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 3015

h333

Original post by Zamestaneh

In my experience they don't tell me to go away rather they enjoy talking for the sake of mockery :holmes:

Surah Luqman 6 and 7 come to mind - "Wa minan-naasi may-yashtari lahuwal hadeethi li yudilla 'an sabilillaahi bighairi 'ilm..."

I am more referring to, if you are new and just say something good/positive about Islam or convey a message. I am sure in return you will have several members bashing you about it etc and if in mockery that is worse. It makes them feel better but does not look good overall.

SubhanAllah. May Allah protect us from engaging in such matters. Ameen.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 3016

h333

Original post by HAnwar

JZK

x

Posted from TSR Mobile

BarakAllahu Feeki x

Reply 3017

Zamestaneh

Original post by h333

I am more referring to, if you are new and just say something good/positive about Islam or convey a message. I am sure in return you will have several members bashing you about it etc and if in mockery that is worse. It makes them feel better but does not look good overall.

SubhanAllah. May allah protect us from engaging in such matters. Ameen.

Ahh, I get you, so making others feel inferior/filling up the tank on some ol' ego juice

Ameen

Reply 3018

HAnwar

Original post by h333

I am more referring to, if you are new and just say something good/positive about Islam or convey a message. I am sure in return you will have several members bashing you about it etc and if in mockery that is worse. It makes them feel better but does not look good overall.

SubhanAllah. May allah protect us from engaging in such matters. Ameen.