Whats the point of this and how flexible is it?

Original post by Luke7456

why

The tidal wave of obsessive attention to details that don't really matter might become too much, to be honest.

Reply 21

OP

Original post by ageshallnot

The tidal wave of obsessive attention to details that don't really matter might become too much, to be honest.

true I have an obsessive personality and I tend to obsess about everything but the information i gathered now having completed all the details for maths might be of interest for others.

Having said that their is a possibility of errors in the sites I gathered the info from, because I had this pointed out to me by Cambridge students when some of the data for Cambridge was wrong. I found out how that wrong figure got in though and it was a weird case.

so Maybe others could help me correct the potential wrong info.

That been said the main data points I go on is Graduate Salary expectation employment % and grade requirements. Those seem pretty important points but i should stop obsessing so maybe I should leave this spreadsheet where it is.

However when I get to working on steps I would like to post solutions for people to say well done or no your wrong etc.

Reply 22

Original post by Luke7456

However when I get to working on steps I would like to post solutions for people to say well done or no your wrong etc.

There is a "STEP prep" thread in the Maths forum.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4275906
STEP Prep Thread 2017

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Reply 23

Artjen

14

Graduate salary expectation can be skewed by the location of the uni. For example if you have low local employment and a lot of students going to their local uni and not willing to move away from home afterwards, the average graduate salary will be low. If you come from a more affluent area and can move back to it after uni to base your job searching, you could well exceed the average graduate salary for your uni. Additionally, the cost of living in the less affluent area is likely to be lower, so reducing your student debt.

Reply 24

Clearing and Applications Advisor

Original post by Artjen

Graduate salary expectation can be skewed by the location of the uni. For example if you have low local employment and a lot of students going to their local uni and not willing to move away from home afterwards, the average graduate salary will be low. If you come from a more affluent area and can move back to it after uni to base your job searching, you could well exceed the average graduate salary for your uni. Additionally, the cost of living in the less affluent area is likely to be lower, so reducing your student debt.

Indeed.

Also, OP, they are just averages. It's not a guaranteed figure and some will earn (possibly much) more and some less.

And it's a snapshot after 6 months... your working career lasts a lot longer and a "low" starting salary by no means you will always be "low". And vice versa...

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Reply 25

PQ

Also for a graduate salary to be made public there only needs to be 7 respondents declaring their salary. That's a very low base size to make decisions on - look how big the salary base size compares to the base size of graduates in employment to decide how reliable and useful that figure is.

Reply 26

OP

Original post by PQ

Also for a graduate salary to be made public there only needs to be 7 respondents declaring their salary. That's a very low base size to make decisions on - look how big the salary base size compares to the base size of graduates in employment to decide how reliable and useful that figure is.

I guess maybe this would explain a few anomalies like for example a maths graduate from Surrey can expect £26000 according to the data I gathered. Surrey is usually okay for maths scraping into or on the outskirts of the top 20, but to my knowledge and correct me if I am wrong Surrey isn't considered a prestigious university. They may considered above average for maths but they are not outstanding for the subject so the figure does seem over inflated. I notice their grade requirements are exceptionally high, so arguably they get this figure just by selecting top students anyway.

However this does not explain why they have the same graduate salary as Durham Who have the same entry requirements but much more restrained with offers (69% vs 83%) and with such a high offer rate from surrey I kind of suspect they are doing what was mentioned earlier (making higher offers and entry requirements then they would actually accept to appear more prestigious)

However I think if you look with a critical eye you can spot abnormalities which may or may not be accurate such as Surrey where as some things are clearly reasonable expectations EG the salary vs say Warwick with 28K and Manchester met with 18k.

I think your right in that you need to be careful with data eg it would be silly to say I should go to Bristol west of England £23000 instead of Leeds a prestigious Russel group uni that scores £22000 because obviously the data is thin and can have variation. You need common sense.

However some anomalies will be with good reason maybe for example and I don't know this I am just making up an example which may or may not be true, Maybe Surrey has direct links to industry an excellent placement scheme or a really good careers service that can help you in ways you wouldn't get in many other places. It raises questions. Will I apply to Surrey probably not but because of this research I did they are now on My radar I will likely go to their open day to see if they do have something that stands out and who knows if they end up wowing me I may end up applying.

However a better example is Bath who are a great university despite not been Russel group and after seeing figures In a number of places really could end up been in my top 5.

It also really depends how exams go I mean obviously I would love to apply to Cambridge Imperial Warwick UCL etc but if I get A*A in my first set of exams its not realistic where as A*A* it is. so I need a list of other universities for mixed scenarios.

Liverpool are Russel group and before I started researching I though yeah Liverpool could be in my top 5 but they score badly in so many categories and I found out they are bad for maths so I won't.

based on a number of factors if I was left just choosing between only Liverpool or Surrey I would go Surrey. I would have said very different before I did the research.

I also think once I get the grades not before I should go to a number of open days and ask key questions.

for example one thing that has not shown up in my data is class sizes etc and how much contact time do we get? maths can be a very hard degree, I would like to know the university I go to could have support in place if I get stuck and some universities are much better for this then others.

ps
I am aware Surrey make the outskirts of top ten on one university league table this is not consistent if this was repeated time and time again it would stand out it isn't.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 27

Original post by Luke7456

Maybe Surrey has direct links to industry an excellent placement scheme or a really good careers service that can help you in ways you wouldn't get in many other places.

This. It's well known for having good industry links.

But again you are getting lost in the numbers. Look at the big picture...

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(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 28

Original post by Luke7456

x

As @jneill says, Surrey is indeed renowned for its industrial placement years and its links with industry.

Reply 29

Artjen

14

Original post by Luke7456

You need common sense.

Indeed. It's amazing how common sense can kick in when you find a university you like and you can't quite explain how that fits with your spreadsheet.

Reply 30

Original post by Artjen

Indeed. It's amazing how common sense can kick in when you find a university you like and you can't quite explain how that fits with your spreadsheet.

I recommend Thinking, Fast and Slow, by Daniel Kahneman to everyone reading this thread.

Reply 31

FranticMind

18

Ignore the expected salary. The range is too wide for the mean to be of any use.

Just pick something you enjoy at a place you enjoy it. Else the below is the path to success:

Spoiler

Reply 32

OP

Original post by ageshallnot

As @jneill says, Surrey is indeed renowned for its industrial placement years and its links with industry.

wow that was a complete guess and i guessed right. I don't understand how Surrey disproves my point though they were identified specifically because of the spreadsheet and I would have never even given them a look if not for this research and spreadsheet now I will likely go to their open day.

Original post by Artjen

Indeed. It's amazing how common sense can kick in when you find a university you like and you can't quite explain how that fits with your spreadsheet.

Yes but that depends, I am obviously going to go to open days and find out more about the universities the areas etc. Maybe I go to Nottingham see something I really like and pick it over Warwick who are supposed to be better. However these are both good universities. Just I am not going to go to Bristol West of England and end up picking them over Cambridge. Note I don't know why i would pick Nottingham over Warwick it is just an example.

I still want to go to a high quality university my research into this allowed me to discount a few Russel group universities and allow for a few universities I wouldn't have thought of before, I think its worthwhile research.

I will be forking out over £40000 when all costs are added up, I need to make sure I get value for money. I am not going to choose a university because the campus or library looks nice sure if two universities are close this could be a factor but I don't want to waste a lot of money, and going to a university that cannot either give me the mathematical education to make more myself or help me into high paying job is not desirable.

an exception been the Counter they do the best burgers I have ever had in my life if they had an establishment in Nottingham that might seal the deal, but nothing not even the counter will get me going to Bristol west of England.

Reply 33

Original post by Luke7456

wow that was a complete guess and i guessed right. I don't understand how Surrey disproves my point though they were identified specifically because of the spreadsheet and I would have never even given them a look if not for this research and spreadsheet now I will likely go to their open day.

You could have identified Surrey without your spreadsheet. You initially made things difficult by using Russell Group membership as one of your main indicators - it was the first category you mentioned. Knowing that RG membership is not paramount comes perhaps from experience but there are also several articles on TSR and elsewhere pointing out this fact.

You would find the Kahneman book interesting. You think very much in what he calls a 'System 2' fashion. A more heuristic approach would indicate that Lancaster, St Andrews, Bath and Surrey are indeed very good universities and generally (ie leaving out individual course factors) better than several at the lower end of the RG spectrum.

Reply 34

Original post by ageshallnot

You could have identified Surrey without your spreadsheet. You initially made things difficult by using Russell Group membership as one of your main indicators - it was the first category you mentioned. Knowing that RG membership is not paramount comes perhaps from experience but there are also several articles on TSR and elsewhere pointing out this fact.

PRSOM

Reply 35

OP

Original post by ageshallnot

You could have identified Surrey without your spreadsheet. You initially made things difficult by using Russell Group membership as one of your main indicators - it was the first category you mentioned. Knowing that RG membership is not paramount comes perhaps from experience but there are also several articles on TSR and elsewhere pointing out this fact.

You would find the Kahneman book interesting. You think very much in what he calls a 'System 2' fashion. A more heuristic approach would indicate that Lancaster, St Andrews, Bath and Surrey are indeed very good universities and generally (ie leaving out individual course factors) better than several at the lower end of the RG spectrum.

Bath is very good and is also very good for maths which is my course. Lancaster and St Andrews are very good for maths however their graduate salary figure was low. I further researched and found out that this is because employers don't target them in the same way they don't have the same prestige as others. Which they should they deserve to but ultimately I have to try and aim at universities that give me a better chance.

Yes some Russel group universities are particularly weak for maths such as Liverpool, Sheffield, Queen marys, also Kings College is pretty weak for maths but their reputation as a whole would still land you a decent a job. But yes It would make more sense to choose surrey instead of Kings.

Have not read that specific book maybe I should look into it but actually my thinking isn't so simplistic I start out thinking on some issues then expand to a wider spectrum which is how I came to the conclusion that Russel group isn't everything.

I think where a few people are going wrong is that They assume I think the same way as them and want the same things as them. I make this mistake often myself in relating to other people.

You probably think I am not taking things into account like clubbing and the area etc. Let me explain how clubbing goes for me I end up seeing everyone else getting together and get nowhere I get frustrated feel like a loser worry I will never find a Girlfriend then decide to get drunk. After a certain stage of drunkenness I reach real depression where I decide I am going to kill myself with alcohol poisoning really because deep down I know I don't want to kill myself but the end result is me been recklessly drunk hugging a toiler bowl throwing up everywhere. the next day I wake up with a real headache and a bill for a door or window I accidentally ripped off in a hurry to get to somewhere I can throw up which won't result in me having to clean it up.

so i am not really fussed about clubs in fact if anything I would rather choose to go somewhere that clubs did not exist so that I did not feel I had to or ought to go out drinking. A local Casino would be good as free money from the poker tables (people really suck at that game) but it normally results in people getting pissed off and making psychical threats to me and looking over my shoulders when I leave. really I am not going to make friends or GF etc I am 31 Autistic and have no friends and the only GF I ever had was an obese Bipolar schizophrenic gold digger who was basically holding on for me to make decent money that never happened. (this is not pejorative insults I found out whilst dating her that she had Bi Polar and Schizophrenia).

I will be a loner at university so I don't care about the social scene or night life. My main concerns are trying to get into a mathematical Career. making a decent Salary, and learning skills in maths I can use myself without nec been employed for solving my own challenges.

Things I want from Maths degree
outstanding Education
Decent Salary and career perspectives
Skills I can apply to own challenges in particular statistical manipulation when we have multiple data all affecting each other instead of just two things that are correlated Maybe some physics.
potential future career in mathematics Academia
ticket into other country if things go really sour for Jews (it is a risk I am not saying it will happen but I want my degree to be able to get me into Australia/USA?Canada.)

I think Prestige of the degree would make a difference their if I am wrong please let me know.

Things I don't really care about
1. Night life
2. Social Scene
3. visual aesthetics whilst it would be nice to go somewhere that looks nice this really isn't a big deal to me. provided it doesn't look like a **** hole I don't really care.

My factors really do break down to economics and Prestige I am sure if your 19 that night life and friends/social life is a big deal. For me it really isn't though.

Reply 36

Original post by Luke7456

I think where a few people are going wrong is that They assume I think the same way as them and want the same things as them. I make this mistake often myself in relating to other people.

You probably think I am not taking things into account like clubbing and the area etc.

No, I am well aware that you don't think the same way as me or many other people.

And no, don't make assumptions about what you believe I am thinking. Your views on clubbing etc never even crossed my mind, nor will they.

Reply 37

Original post by Luke7456

Bath is very good and is also very good for maths which is my course. Lancaster and St Andrews are very good for maths however their graduate salary figure was low. I further researched and found out that this is because employers don't target them in the same way they don't have the same prestige as others.

You will never be disadvantaged by going to Lancaster or St Andrews.

On Linkedin, 4,500 alumni studied Maths at Lancaster
https://www.linkedin.com/edu/alumni?id=12603&facets=&keyword=mathematics&dateType=attended&startYear=&endYear=&incNoDates=true&start=0&count=10&filters=on&trk=ta-chg-school

And 3,200 from St Andrews (a smaller university)
https://www.linkedin.com/edu/alumni?id=12722&facets=&keyword=mathematics&dateType=attended&startYear=&endYear=&incNoDates=true&start=0&count=10&filters=on&trk=ta-chg-school

Decent Salary and career perspectives

I'll refer you back to my earlier post - your salary 6 months after graduation does NOT define your career.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 38

Abstract_Prism

You've done very well to quantify those universities, but there are other factors to consider that are not so quantifiable. For example, do you like the look of the university? Warwick may provide excellent opportunities to get into investment banking, but it looks rather hideous and is in a remote location. Another example, the perceived reputation of the university. Often the league tables and employment progression rates won't have any impact on how a university is perceived, that is, their deeply-rooted reputation. And I do think that is something you might want to take into consideration.

And then you've got the uni experience itself, which you might consider worth paying for, even if it won't increase your earning potential enough that you would have been in a better financial position by not going to uni.

Reply 39

OP