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Original post by Leukocyte
AFAIK hitting and doing all sorts on Ashura has no basis in Islam and is bidah.


Interesting opinion. I also assume you are cognisant that something having "no basis in Islam" and something being prohibited is different ( it does have a basis, the issue is whether you accept the action or not)

Original post by Leukocyte

A lot of other leaders died too but they don't mark each death like they do with Imam Husayn.


None did what Imam Hussain did.

Original post by Leukocyte

Mourning in general is what the Prophet did, they didn't do these things we see today.


Perhaps.

So would you promote mourning for martyrs (eg Imam Hussain) like the Prophet did when his uncle was martyred?
(edited 7 years ago)
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103)

Imam Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

"Every Muslim should mourn the killing of al-Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with him), for he is one of the leaders of the Muslims, one of the scholars of the Sahaabah, and the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who was the best of his daughters. He was a devoted worshipper, and a courageous and generous man. But there is nothing good in what the Shi’ah do of expressing distress and grief, most of which may be done in order to show off. His father was better than him and he was killed, but they do not take his death as an anniversary as they do with the death of al-Husayn. His father was killed on a Friday as he was leaving the mosque after Fajr prayer, on the seventeenth of Ramadaan in 40 AH. ‘Uthmaan was better than ‘Ali according to Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, and he was killed when he was besieged in his house during the days of al-Tashreeq in Dhu’l-Hijjah of 36 AH, with his throat cut from one jugular vein to the other, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was better than ‘Ali and ‘Uthmaan, and he was killed as he was standing in the mihraab, praying Fajr and reciting Qur’aan, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq was better than him but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the leader of the sons of Adam in this world and the Hereafter, and Allaah took him to Him as the Prophets died before him, but no one took the dates of their deaths as anniversaries on which they do what these ignorant Raafidis do on the day that al-Husayn was killed. … The best that can be said when remembering these and similar calamities is that which ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn narrated from his grandfather the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “There is no Muslim who is afflicted by a calamity and when he remembers it, even if it was in the dim and distant past, he says Inna Lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji’oon (verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return), but Allaah will give him a reward like that of the day when it befell him.”

Narrated by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Majaah, end quote from al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah (8/221).

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

"Because of the killing of al-Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with him), shaytaan caused the people to introduce two innovations: the innovation of mourning and wailing on the day of ‘Ashoora’, by slapping the cheeks, weeping, and reciting eulogies. … and the innovation of rejoicing and celebrating. … So some introduced mourning and others introduced celebration, so they regarded the day of ‘Ashoora’ as a day for wearing kohl, doing ghusl, spending on the family and making special foods. … And every innovation is a going astray. None of the four imams of the Muslims or any other (scholars) regarded either of these things as mustahabb. "

Minhaaj al-Sunnah (4/554).
https://youtu.be/UWmGEvZltBE ❤️
Reply 3543
Avatar for h333
h333
16
Salaam and Jzk for the responses :smile:

Original post by mil88
To my knowledge, some of those who don't listen justify their actions by their emotions.

Are you referring to zanjir, matam or both?


Oh okay then may Allah guide them. Ameen.

Well I was referring more or less to matam I guess. Idk what you mean by zanjir like hitting yourself with it? No not that as of course that is not allowed in Islam. Like you know when people gather and start crying, mourning openly on the day, slightly using their hands to hit their chest etc I am not sure where this practice comes from and why is it so necessary to do openly or as a group or just in general?


Original post by mil88
We do (however only half day on Ashura)

We do!



Guess what, we do this as well!

In all serious, the practice is (and can be) derived from the Quran and hadiths.

The severity and extent to which people do this act, is strictly defined (for instance, zanjir is not allowed)


Great Alhamdulillah but what do you mean by fast only half a day? Why? Where did this practice come from?

Hmm not sure about the practice being allowed as I have known so far from scholars. Again this is what I don't get so the practice is allowed but to some extent. As far as I know some people go out of hand with it. And this can be dangerous which should not be part of Islam as we know in Islam does not allow us to hurt ourself, or occasionally for an event.

Sorry for too many questions or if I am not as clear :smile:
(edited 7 years ago)
Reply 3544
Avatar for h333
h333
16
Astaghfirullah :frown:
La hawla wala quwata illah billah.
First time I reported a post of someone.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by h333
Salaam and Jzk for the responses :smile:



Wasalam and np

Original post by h333

WellI was referring more or less matam I guess. Idk what you mean by zanjir like hitting yourself with it? No not that as of course that is not allowed in Islam. Like you know when people gather and start crying, mourning openly on the day, slightly using their hands to hit theit chest etc I am not sure where this practice comes from and why is it so necessary to do openly or as a group or just in general?


Zanjir is using knives.

Crying for the shaheed is not new (the Prophet did this)

Like many things here, it is not wajib to all go to a centre and mourn, it's just easiest because then you can have a speaker to narrate the story of Karbala, to everyone.

Just to elaborate, (in my opinion at least), doing a fast on a random day is not Bidah. This is because you're not changing an Islamic rule. If I now say everyone must fast on this day, then that is Bidah. This is a great misconception that I see alot, probably because of the loose use of the term.
Original post by h333


Great Alahmdulillah but what do you mean by fast only half a day? Why? Where did this practice come from?


It's not really a practice, nor is it wajib in any sense. All I know is that we should not fast the entire day of Ashura. (unrecommended)

Original post by h333

And this can be dangeroud which should not ve part of Islam as we know in Islam does not allow us to hurt ourself, or occasionally for an event.


I will ask 4 questions and (if possible) would like a yes or no answer (the first 3 are in response to this, and the last one is just for my knowledge of your belief)

1. When Prophet Yaqub cried so much for Prophet Yusuf (that he became blind) and thus damaged part of his body, did he commit a sin?

2. When the wife of Ibrahim is recorded as hitting her face when he realised he was giving birth (at her age), did she commit a sin? If yes, why didn't God mention her sin? (Sorry I cannot remember the verse)

3. I saw many of the school friends during ramadhan, breaking their fast and then praying taraweeh and then come to school (very small amounts of sleep for them personally) for the entire (more or less) month of ramadhan. Although to a lesser extent of self damage, it is still classified as damaging their body. Did they commit a sin?

4. I once saw (after an attack) the mothers of small children who were dead, crying loudly and hitting themselves because of the state of the child (dead). Did they commit a sin? Or will they be punished by the (all merciful) God?
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by mil88
Interesting opinion. I also assume you are cognisant that something having "no basis in Islam" and something being prohibited is different ( it does have a basis, the issue is whether you accept the action or not)


The Prophet did not do any of the actions nor his companions.

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

None did what Imam Hussain did.


SubhanAllah I can't believe what I'm reading.

So would you promote mourning for martyrs (eg Imam Hussain) like the Prophet did when his uncle was martyred?


Every Muslim should mourn the killing of Husyan. That doesn't mean going to extreme levels like hitting etc rather feeling sad and distressed.
salaam
Original post by Leukocyte
The Prophet did not do any of the actions nor his companions.

Al-Bukhaari (1294) and Muslim (103) narrated that ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Mas’ood (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“He is not one of us who strikes his cheeks, rends his garment, or cries with the cry of the Jaahiliyyah.”

I think by basis you misunderstood me. By basis, I meant 'it can be justified' or 'it can be extrapolated using other hadiths or historical facts'.

Original post by Leukocyte


SubhanAllah I can't believe what I'm reading.


Oh, I sincerely apologize if I have offended you, it was just my opinion.

So do you have another example that equates to Imam Hussains sacrifice?
Original post by Leukocyte


Every Muslim should mourn the killing of Husyan. That doesn't mean going to extreme levels like hitting etc rather feeling sad and distressed.


The first problem is a lot of Muslims don't even know who he is, ironically speaking, despite many non muslims revering him,

I can understand that and am saying that the hitting element is not compulsory.
Original post by mil88
I think by basis you misunderstood me. By basis, I meant 'it can be justified' or 'it can be extrapolated using other hadiths or historical facts'.


قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful."



Original post by mil88

Oh, I sincerely apologize if I have offended you, it was just my opinion.

So do you have another example that equates to Imam Hussains sacrifice?



Imam Al-Haafiz Ibn Katheer (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

"Every Muslim should mourn the killing of al-Husayn (may Allaah be pleased with him), for he is one of the leaders of the Muslims, one of the scholars of the Sahaabah, and the son of the daughter of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who was the best of his daughters. He was a devoted worshipper, and a courageous and generous man. But there is nothing good in what the Shi’ah do of expressing distress and grief, most of which may be done in order to show off. His father was better than him and he was killed, but they do not take his death as an anniversary as they do with the death of al-Husayn. His father was killed on a Friday as he was leaving the mosque after Fajr prayer, on the seventeenth of Ramadaan in 40 AH. ‘Uthmaan was better than ‘Ali according to Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, and he was killed when he was besieged in his house during the days of al-Tashreeq in Dhu’l-Hijjah of 36 AH, with his throat cut from one jugular vein to the other, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was better than ‘Ali and ‘Uthmaan, and he was killed as he was standing in the mihraab, praying Fajr and reciting Qur’aan, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq was better than him but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the leader of the sons of Adam in this world and the Hereafter, and Allaah took him to Him as the Prophets died before him, but no one took the dates of their deaths as anniversaries on which they do what these ignorant Raafidis do on the day that al-Husayn was killed. … The best that can be said when remembering these and similar calamities is that which ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn narrated from his grandfather the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “There is no Muslim who is afflicted by a calamity and when he remembers it, even if it was in the dim and distant past, he saysInna Lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji’oon (verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return), but Allaah will give him a reward like that of the day when it befell him.”

Narrated by Imam Ahmad and Ibn Majaah, end quote from al-Bidaayah wa’l-Nihaayah (8/221).
Original post by mil88
I think by basis you misunderstood me. By basis, I meant 'it can be justified' or 'it can be extrapolated using other hadiths or historical facts'.

Oh, I sincerely apologize if I have offended you, it was just my opinion.

So do you have another example that equates to Imam Hussains sacrifice?

The first problem is a lot of Muslims don't even know who he is, ironically speaking, despite many non muslims revering him,

I can understand that and am saying that the hitting element is not compulsory.


Oh no I'm not offended. I'm shocked why a lot of Shias show more devotion to Imam Husyan than Rasulullah? Maybe you can answer that.

Again I don't understand what your point is? There were many leaders greater than Husayn and many other Prophets who sacrificed a lot. This shouldn't be about who scores more, subhanAllah.
Original post by Leukocyte
Oh no I'm not offended. I'm shocked why a lot of Shias show more devotion to Imam Husyan than Rasulullah? Maybe you can answer that.


I will try inshallah.

Today was ashura, hence we focus on Karbala.

I will say it unequivicly, the greatest creation of God, is Prophet Muhammad. The only reason why the imams have their status, is because of the Holy Prophet.

So no, we don't show more devotion to Imam Hussain than the Prophet. It's only one day we mention Hussain, but it's the entire year we mention the Prophet (adhan, salwat etc)

Original post by Leukocyte

Again I don't understand what your point is? There were many leaders greater than Husayn and many other Prophets who sacrificed a lot. This shouldn't be about who scores more, subhanAllah.


Ah I see the issue. I am referring to only and specifically "the greatness of the sacrifice for Islam" not who is greater than the other.

My question is: who else has gave away his entire family and close companions (killed and slain infront of him), sacrificed his hunger and thirst (3 days no food or water prior to Ashura), was killed in the worst of ways, sacrificed his women (the Great Granddaughters of the man who bought this religion) which involved his women being burnt, slapped, whipped and paraded through the streets of Shaam whilst being pelted with rocks and boiling water thrown at their heads.

So I ask again, who sacrificed more than Imam Hussain? (I do recognize this is kind of subjective though)

To me (and other muslims and even non muslims), this was one of the greatest sacrifices, for Islam, ever carried out.

The Prophets are unequivocally great in their own respect.as well.
Original post by ThatMuslimGuy
قُلْ هَاتُوا بُرْهَانَكُمْ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ

Say, "Bring forth your proofs, if you are truthful."


This is not the thread for bringing proofs, I am not trying to convince anyone, rather understanding their points relative to mine.

Original post by ThatMuslimGuy


for he is one of the leaders of the Muslims,

In your beliefs, when was Imam Hussain ever announced as a leader for the Muslims? Personally, I have never heard of any sunni mentioning this, so it could be something new!

Original post by ThatMuslimGuy

But there is nothing good in what the Shi’ah do of expressing distress and grief, most of which may be done in order to show off.


Mashallah brother! I never knew fallible, mere human beings possessed such abilities.

Original post by ThatMuslimGuy

His father was better than him and he was killed, but they do not take his death as an anniversary as they do with the death of al-Husayn. His father was killed on a Friday as he was leaving the mosque after Fajr prayer, on the seventeenth of Ramadaan in 40 AH. ‘Uthmaan was better than ‘Ali according to Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, and he was killed when he was besieged in his house during the days of al-Tashreeq in Dhu’l-Hijjah of 36 AH, with his throat cut from one jugular vein to the other, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab was better than ‘Ali and ‘Uthmaan, and he was killed as he was standing in the mihraab, praying Fajr and reciting Qur’aan, but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq was better than him but the people did not take his death as an anniversary. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the leader of the sons of Adam in this world and the Hereafter, and Allaah took him to Him as the Prophets died before him, but no one took the dates of their deaths as anniversaries on which they do what these ignorant Raafidis do on the day that al-Husayn was killed. … The best that can be said when remembering these and similar calamities is that which ‘Ali ibn al-Husayn narrated from his grandfather the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), who said: “There is no Muslim who is afflicted by a calamity and when he remembers it, even if it was in the dim and distant past, he saysInna Lillaahi wa inna ilayhi raaji’oon (verily to Allaah we belong and unto Him is our return), but Allaah will give him a reward like that of the day when it befell him.”
.


Imam Ali was struck whilst in prayer, not when leaving the mosque. (Strawman)

"His father was better than him"

This is the issue I am having here. No shia would ever say, Imam Hussain supercedes Imam Ali. But this is not relevant, like I have previously said, I am merely discussing the "sacrifice" for/in the way of Islam, not who is better than who. The rest about which caliphs are better than others therefore is also irrelevant.

Thus the quote offers no support, with due respect.
Original post by mil88


So no, we don't show more devotion to Imam Hussain than the Prophet. It's only one day we mention Hussain, but it's the entire year we mention the Prophet (adhan, salwat etc)



I disagree with you on this. Two examples straight away come to mind which made me think otherwise.

1) At my university we have an Isoc and last year the Shia made their own society. You know what they called it? Imam Hussain society.

2) Shia running extensive campaigns like "Who is Hussain(ra)?" (I'm sure you have a website for this too) whilst other Muslims did "Who is Muhammad (saw)?".
Original post by IdeasForLife
I disagree with you on this. Two examples straight away come to mind which made me think otherwise.

1) At my university we have an Isoc and last year the Shia made their own society. You know what they called it? Imam Hussain society.

2) Shia running extensive campaigns like "Who is Hussain(ra)?" (I'm sure you have a website for this too) whilst other Muslims did "Who is Muhammad (saw)?".


Really? I would have thought they would have called it ahul bayt.
Original post by AbdulALI
Really? I would have thought they would have called it ahul bayt.


Yh. Normally they go for that but even then I notice more focus on Hussain (ra)(e.g. through their social media and other actions) than on anyone else.
Original post by IdeasForLife
I disagree with you on this. Two examples straight away come to mind which made me think otherwise.

1) At my university we have an Isoc and last year the Shia made their own society. You know what they called it? Imam Hussain society.

2) Shia running extensive campaigns like "Who is Hussain(ra)?" (I'm sure you have a website for this too) whilst other Muslims did "Who is Muhammad (saw)?".


For 1), "ahlulbayt society" would have been more suitable.

For 2) what you must realize is that the relative proportion of people that are informed of the Holy Prophet compared to Imam Hussain is huge, thus the website etc (to raise awareness)

Having said that, (from my experience), although we mention members of Ahlulbayt, the end focus is on the Holy Prophet. I disagree with any Muslim who focuses on other people continuously without remembering the great role of the Holy Prophet.
Original post by IdeasForLife
Yh. Normally they go for that but even then I notice more focus on Hussain (ra)(e.g. through their social media and other actions) than on anyone else.


I always thought they were obsessed with Ali
Original post by mil88


My question is: who else has gave away his entire family and close companions (killed and slain infront of him), sacrificed his hunger and thirst (3 days no food or water prior to Ashura), was killed in the worst of ways, sacrificed his women (the Great Granddaughters of the man who bought this religion) which involved his women being burnt, slapped, whipped and paraded through the streets of Shaam whilst being pelted with rocks and boiling water thrown at their heads.


I'm sorry if I come across rude but all I see you trying to do is justify wrong beliefs, it's not working. I hope you do realise that this goes against Islam and proofs have been provided more than once, yet you haven't answered to any of them which shows you do not wish to accept these hadiths. I understand though, your thinking is different to mine but you have to realise what you're saying is not entirely correct. Going into details and describing what Imam Husayn went through cannot be used as an excuse. If the Prophet and his companions did not make this such a big deal why is it you are? Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant.

Allahu Alam
What a day you lot have had. HAnwar posted something hinging on politics and H333 reported someone. What's going on?

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