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Mathematical Analysis Questions

If anyone would be able to check my answers, and/or point me in the right direction on those which are wrong or I'm stuck on, I'd appreciate it.



Claim 1: One such counterexample would be if we let an=11n\displaystyle a_n=1-\frac{1}{n} which is a strictly increasing sequence that is bounded above at the value of 1.

Claim 2: an=(2)na_n=(-2)^n is a counter-example nN\forall n \in \mathbb{N}

Claim 3: Stuck on this as I wasn't sure if bnb_n must be a constant or not, but I settled on the decision that it cannot be. So if bn=1nb_n=\frac{1}{n} then (anbn)↛(a_nb_n) \not \rightarrow \infty as it would tend to 0 instead, I think.

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I suppose this one leads off the previous part. I think this is not necessarily true but I'm unsure how to prove it, and I haven't made much progress here.
Original post by RDKGames
If anyone would be able to check my answers, and/or point me in the right direction on those which are wrong or I'm stuck on, I'd appreciate it.



Claim 1: One such counterexample would be if we let an=11n\displaystyle a_n=1-\frac{1}{n} which is a strictly increasing sequence that is bounded above at the value of 1.

Claim 2: an=(2)na_n=(-2)^n is a counter-example nN\forall n \in \mathbb{N}

Claim 3: Stuck on this as I wasn't sure if bnb_n must be a constant or not, but I settled on the decision that it cannot be. So if bn=1nb_n=\frac{1}{n} then (anbn)↛(a_nb_n) \not \rightarrow \infty as it would tend to 0 instead, I think.

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I suppose this one leads off the previous part. I think this is not necessarily true but I'm unsure how to prove it, and I haven't made much progress here.


Your counterexample for claim 3 is incomplete. You need to specify an (an)(a_n) sequence to go with that (bn)(b_n)

If an=n2a_n=n^2, for example, then your sequence for bnb_n would still have (anbn)(a_nb_n)\to\infty

For the last bit, rather than look for a counterexample, try and prove it's true.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ghostwalker
Your counterexample for claim 3 is incomplete. You need to specify an (an)(a_n) sequence to go with that (bn)(b_n)

If an=n2a_n=n^2, for example, then your sequence for bnb_n would still have (anbn)(a_nb_n)\to\infty


So if I say that an=na_n=n then I assume my counter-example would hold as then (anbn)=1,1,1,1,1,...(a_nb_n)={ 1,1,1,1,1,... }?

For the last bit, rather than look for a counterexample, try and prove it's true.


I'm not quite sure how to go about the proof here for the general case, but I gave it some sort of go.

Since bn>12b_n>\frac{1}{2} we can say that bn=12+1n,nNb_n=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n}, \forall n \in \mathbb{N}

Then we know that (an)(a_n) \rightarrow \infty so we can say it is an=na_n=n

Leaving us with (anbn)=n(12+1n)=12n+1(a_nb_n)=n(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n})=\frac{1}{2}n+1 which indeed tends to infinity.

Generalising exponents we can also get an=nk,bn=12+1nl,k0,l0(anbn)=nk2+nkla_n=n^k, b_n=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n^l}, k \geq 0, l \geq 0 \Rightarrow (a_nb_n)=\frac{n^k}{2}+n^{k-l} which is always tending to infinity by the looks of it, but I do not feel like this is a good enough proof as it doesn't seem to branch out to different functions tending to infinity.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by RDKGames




I suppose this one leads off the previous part. I think this is not necessarily true but I'm unsure how to prove it, and I haven't made much progress here.


If ana_n \to \infty then there is an N+N_+ after which it is always positive. So

n>N+an>0anbn>?n > N_+ \Rightarrow a_n >0 \Rightarrow a_n b_n > ?
Original post by RDKGames
So if I say that an=na_n=n then I assume my counter-example would hold as then (anbn)=1,1,1,1,1,...(a_nb_n)={ 1,1,1,1,1,... }?


Yes.


I'm not quite sure how to go about the proof here for the general case, but I gave it some sort of go.

Since bn>12b_n>\frac{1}{2} we can say that bn=12+1n,nNb_n=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n}, \forall n \in \mathbb{N}

Then we know that (an)(a_n) \rightarrow \infty so we can say it is an=na_n=n

Leaving us with (anbn)=n(12+1n)=12n+1(a_nb_n)=n(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n})=\frac{1}{2}n+1 which indeed tends to infinity.


Well that's a specific example of two sequences that meet the criterion.


Generalising exponents we can also get an=nk,bn=12+1nl,k0,l0(anbn)=nk2+nkla_n=n^k, b_n=\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{n^l}, k \geq 0, l \geq 0 \Rightarrow (a_nb_n)=\frac{n^k}{2}+n^{k-l} which is always tending to infinity by the looks of it, but I do not feel like this is a good enough proof as it doesn't seem to branch out to different functions tending to infinity.


Whilst a specific example can sometimes help to give you the idea of how to go about a general proof, I think it will take longer to analyse how/why that's happening here and we could get distracted by details in the specific sequences, than it would be to do it for the general case.

(Note: A sequence isn't necessarily going to have a nice formula defining it.)

We need to start with, what does it mean a sequence tends to infinity (which is what we've been given in the question for a_n)? What's the mathematical definition you've been given?

Qualitatively, we can see that if a sequence goes off to infinity, and we multiply each element of it by at least half, it's still going to go off to infinity, only it's rate of growth may be slower.

PS: Analysis proofs tend to be a shock to the system when first encountered. Can be a bit like you're sailing along nicely, then suddenly lolwtf!!
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by ghostwalker
Yes.



Well that's a specific example of two sequences that meet the criterion.



Whilst a specific example can sometimes help to give you the idea of how to go about a general proof, I think it will take longer to analyse how/why that's happening here and we could get distracted by details in the specific sequences, than it would be to do it for the general case.

(Note: A sequence isn't necessarily going to have a nice formula defining it.)

We need to start with, what does it mean a sequence tends to infinity (which is what we've been given in the question for a_n)? What's the mathematical definition you've been given?

Qualitatively, we can see that if a sequence goes off to infinity, and we multiply each element of it by at least half, it's still going to go off to infinity, only it's rate of growth may be slower.

PS: Analysis proofs tend to be a shock to the system when first encountered. Can be a bit like you're sailing along nicely, then suddenly lolwtf!!


The definition for a sequence tending to infinity has been given as:

(an)(a_n) \rightarrow \infty if, and only if, C>0,NN\forall C >0, \exists N\in \mathbb{N} such that n>N,an>C\forall n > N, a_n>C

and this makes sense to me but I am struggling to apply it when introducing, within a proof, a different sequence that has to be strictly above 12\frac{1}{2}.

Since (an)(an)>C,C>0(a_n) \rightarrow \infty \Rightarrow (a_n)>C, \forall C > 0 and if (bn)>12(b_n)>\frac{1}{2} then (anbn)>12C(a_nb_n) > \frac{1}{2}C which still tends to infinity n>N,NN\forall n > N, N \in \mathbb{N}
Original post by RDKGames
The definition for a sequence tending to infinity has been given as:

(an)(a_n) \rightarrow \infty if, and only if, C>0,NN\forall C >0, \exists N\in \mathbb{N} such that n>N,an>C\forall n > N, a_n>C


OK, that's the standard definition, and what we need to work with.


and this makes sense to me but I am struggling to apply it when introducing, within a proof, a different sequence that has to be strictly above 12\frac{1}{2}.


It's not so much the b_n we need to worry about as we know its terms are always > 1/2. So we know anbn>an2a_nb_n> \frac{a_n}{2}, for a_n > 0.


Since (an)(an)>C,C>0(a_n) \rightarrow \infty \Rightarrow (a_n)>C, \forall C > 0 and if (bn)>12(b_n)>\frac{1}{2} then (anbn)>12C(a_nb_n) > \frac{1}{2}C which still tends to infinity n>N,NN\forall n > N, N \in \mathbb{N}


(an)>C,C>0(a_n)>C, \forall C > 0 has no meaning as such.

We know that for any value C>0 we choose, we can find N (dependent on C) such that n>N,an>C\forall n > N,a_n > C

We want to show (I use different letters to avoid confusion),
for any value D>0 we choose, we can find M (dependent on D) such that n>M,anbn>D\forall n > M,a_nb_n > D

The problem becomes tying these two definitions together.

Edit: Sorry, struggling to explain clearly and have to go out just now. Will get back to it again in a few hours.
Original post by RDKGames
The definition for a sequence tending to infinity has been given as:

(an)(a_n) \rightarrow \infty if, and only if, C>0,NN\forall C >0, \exists N\in \mathbb{N} such that n>N,an>C\forall n > N, a_n>C

and this makes sense to me but I am struggling to apply it when introducing, within a proof, a different sequence that has to be strictly above 12\frac{1}{2}.Hope ghostwalker won't mind me taking a stab at clarifying.

Although we usually interpret \forall as "for all", or "for every", it's often more helpful to think of it as "for any".

Similarly, rather than thinking of \exists as "exists", think of it as "we can find".

So your statement becomes "(an)(a_n)\to \infty if for any C > 0, we can find NN N\in \mathbb{N} such that for any n>N,an>Cn > N, a_n>C"

Moving on, with a similar rephrasing, the result we actually want to prove (that (anbn)(a_n b_n)\to\infty) is:

"for any C > 0, we can find NN N\in \mathbb{N} such that for any n>N,anbn>Cn > N, a_n b_n>C"

In a way this is just playing with words, but hopefully it makes it a bit easier to understand that to prove the statement above, your answer is going to look like:

Take C > 0; here's how we can find NNN\in \mathbb{N} such that for any n>N,anbn>Cn > N, a_n b_n>C,

(where the bit I've underlined is where the "real work" of the proof is going to lie).

To do the underlined bit, you're going to need to use the definiton for ana_n \to \infty in order to find a suitable "N".

Edit: regarding going from "for any C" to "Take C > 0". It basically just saves a bit of writing/mental effort. Rather than continually doing/thinking "here's how you do it for all values of C", it's easier to write/think "here's how you do it for a particular value of C" (this is particularly true when you want to use C as a value in another definition). But since the "particular value" was arbitrary, at the end you've still shown it for arbitary C.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by DFranklin
Hope ghostwalker won't mind me taking a stab at clarifying.


Not in the slightest, and much appreciated. I have added notation/definitions for the sake of clarity of the explanation that wouldn't be part of a standard proof, but I can't see offhand how to avoid this. Please feel free to criticise - think I'm making a bit of a pig's ear of it.


Original post by RDKGames
...


OK, lets take a stab at a proof. Whilst the format below should be sound, it won't actually work, but hopefully you can see how it could be adapted.

With C,D,M,N symbols I defined in my previous post.

Showing (anbn)(a_nb_n) is unbounded:

We have an arbitrary D > 0.

By the unboundedness of (an)(a_n) and choosing C equal to D

N,s.t.n>N,an>D\exists N, s.t. \forall n>N, a_n > D

But we're interested in anbna_nb_n, and since bn>0b_n> 0 we can say

N,n>N,anbn>Dbn\exists N, \forall n>N, a_nb_n > Db_n

and since bn>1/2b_n > 1/2

N,n>N,anbn>D/2\exists N, \forall n>N, a_nb_n > D/2

We now choose our M to equal N.

So, we've shown:

D>0,MNs.t.n>M,anbn>D/2\forall D>0, \exists M\in\mathbb{N}s.t.\forall n>M, a_nb_n>D/2

Which is almost what we want, but not quite. There's a pesky "/2". So, we need to adjust this, somewhere in the point we either go into, or come out of our orginal sequence (an)(a_n)
Reply 9
Original post by ghostwalker

Which is almost what we want, but not quite. There's a pesky "/2". So, we need to adjust this, somewhere in the point we either go into, or come out of our orginal sequence (an)(a_n)



Doesn't D being an arbitrary value not just imply the sequence tends to infinity anyway?
Original post by B_9710
Doesn't D being an arbitrary value not just imply the sequence tends to infinity anyway?


It does.

BUT, it's more important that the OP gets a feel for how these proofs are done (even though I don't feel I've explained it very well) and their exactness, than look for the "shortcuts" (for want of a better term).
Original post by ghostwalker
Not in the slightest, and much appreciated. I have added notation/definitions for the sake of clarity of the explanation that wouldn't be part of a standard proof, but I can't see offhand how to avoid this. Please feel free to criticise - think I'm making a bit of a pig's ear of it.


OK, lets take a stab at a proof. Whilst the format below should be sound, it won't actually work, but hopefully you can see how it could be adapted.

With C,D,M,N symbols I defined in my previous post.

Showing (anbn)(a_nb_n) is unbounded:

We have an arbitrary D > 0.

By the unboundedness of (an)(a_n) and choosing C equal to D

N,s.t.n>N,an>D\exists N, s.t. \forall n>N, a_n > D

But we're interested in anbna_nb_n, and since bn>0b_n> 0 we can say

N,n>N,anbn>Dbn\exists N, \forall n>N, a_nb_n > Db_n

and since bn>1/2b_n > 1/2

N,n>N,anbn>D/2\exists N, \forall n>N, a_nb_n > D/2

We now choose our M to equal N.

So, we've shown:

D>0,MNs.t.n>M,anbn>D/2\forall D>0, \exists M\in\mathbb{N}s.t.\forall n>M, a_nb_n>D/2

Which is almost what we want, but not quite. There's a pesky "/2". So, we need to adjust this, somewhere in the point we either go into, or come out of our orginal sequence (an)(a_n)


Ah that is a good example of how to approach these proofs, thank you! So for the D/2 at the end, would you just multiply both sides by 2 and show that 2(anbn)>D2(anbn)(anbn)2(a_nb_n)>D \Rightarrow 2(a_nb_n) \rightarrow \infty \Rightarrow (a_nb_n) \rightarrow \infty ?? Other method of getting rid off that "/2", as you say, I think would be to let a different variable equal D/2.

Would this be the correct approach?

Analysis seems like out of this world so far as I am 2 weeks into it aha, trying to get used to all of it is proving to be a hurdle!
Original post by RDKGames
Ah that is a good example of how to approach these proofs, thank you! So for the D/2 at the end, would you just multiply both sides by 2 and show that 2(anbn)>D2(anbn)(anbn)2(a_nb_n)>D \Rightarrow 2(a_nb_n) \rightarrow \infty \Rightarrow (a_nb_n) \rightarrow \infty ?? Other method of getting rid off that "/2", as you say, I think would be to let a different variable equal D/2.

Would this be the correct approach?

Analysis seems like out of this world so far as I am 2 weeks into it aha, trying to get used to all of it is proving to be a hurdle!


[I should emphaszie I'm being pedantic here.

Saying 2(anb2)(anbn)2(a_nb_2)\to\infty \Rightarrow (a_nb_n)\to\infty seems and is obvious, but prove it from the definitions. There are a several simple results that it is useful to use/have, but you really need to prove them first before using them.]

"let a different variable equal D/2." may be heading in the right direction, but I'm not clear what you mean.

I think it best to just say:
We chose D to start with, and then we chose C based on D, but there is no requirement for them to be equal. So, suppose we let C=2D....
Original post by ghostwalker
[I should emphaszie I'm being pedantic here.

Saying 2(anb2)(anbn)2(a_nb_2)\to\infty \Rightarrow (a_nb_n)\to\infty seems and is obvious, but prove it from the definitions. There are a several simple results that it is useful to use/have, but you really need to prove them first before using them.]

"let a different variable equal D/2." may be heading in the right direction, but I'm not clear what you mean.

I think it best to just say:
We chose D to start with, and then we chose C based on D, but there is no requirement for them to be equal. So, suppose we let C=2D....


Thank you very much for the clear explanation! :smile:
@ghostwalker @DFranklin

Practicing the ways of Analysis proofs I stumbled on this one though it seems as if it should be straightforward. I'm unsure;

Capture.PNG

(a) (an)(a_n) \rightarrow -\infty if, and only if, C<0,NN:n>N,an<C\forall C<0, \exists N \in \mathbb{N} : \forall n > N, a_n<C



(b) We know that if (an)(a_n) \rightarrow -\infty then NN:n>N,an<C,C<0\exists N \in \mathbb{N} : \forall n > N, a_n<C, \forall C<0

We want the conclusion that ϵ>0,MN:n>M,1an<ϵ \forall \epsilon>0, \exists M \in \mathbb{N} : \forall n>M, \lvert \frac{1}{a_n} \lvert <\epsilon

So if ϵ>01ϵ>0\epsilon >0 \Rightarrow \frac{1}{\epsilon}>0 and if 0>C1ϵ>C0>C \Rightarrow \frac{1}{\epsilon}>C

Since n>N,an<Can<1ϵ\forall n > N, a_n < C \Rightarrow a_n < \frac{1}{\epsilon}

ϵ<1an\Rightarrow \epsilon < \frac{1}{a_n} but this doesn't make sense as 1an\frac{1}{a_n} is negative and ϵ\epsilon is positive, so the negative cannot be greater than the positive. Not sure if taking the modulus of the RHS would resolve this.
RDKGames
,,
TBH, I'm finding it very hard to follow your argument here. A piece of general advice: using     \implies can be very confusing in these kinds of proofs, especially where you are sometimes using it in the sense of a formal definition (e.g. Ns.t.n>n    ...\exists N s.t. n > n \implies ...), and using it in terms of normal mathematical argument (e.g. x+3>y    x>y3x+3 > y \implies x > y-3).

To give a concrete example of why it's confusing, look at your line

So if ϵ>0    1ϵ>0\epsilon > 0 \implies \frac{1}{\epsilon} > 0 and if 0>C    1ϵ>C 0 > C \implies \frac{1}{\epsilon} > C


I don't know if you mean "if epsilon > 0 then 1/epsilon > 0 and ...", or you mean "if it is true that 'epsilon > 0 implies 1/epsilon > 0' and ..."

It is usually a lot clearer to simply write "so" or "then" if you are just using normal mathematical arguments.

In this case I am guessing you meant something along the lines of

"So, if epsilon > 0 then 1/epsilon > 0, and if 0 > C then 1/epsilon > C".

As far as the actual proof here, I would focus on why (by intuition) you would expect the result to be true.

That is: if a_n is consistently large and negative, then 1/a_n is consistently small and negative, so 1/|a_n| is small and positive.
You want to show 1/|a_n| < epsilon. Working backwards shows you you will need 0 > 1/a_n > -epsilon (note use of > since a_n and - epsilon are both negative). So you need a_n < -1/epsilon.
Original post by DFranklin


I don't know if you mean "if epsilon > 0 then 1/epsilon > 0 and ...", or you mean "if it is true that 'epsilon > 0 implies 1/epsilon > 0' and ..."


I began the proof by stating what we have, and what we need to achieve to make it clear before heading into the main bodywork of it.

Here I simply worked from our wanted form that comes straight from the definition:
Unparseable latex formula:

\forall \epsilon&gt;0, \exists M \in \mathbb{N} : \forall n&gt;M, \lvert \frac{1}{a_n} \lvert &lt;\epsilon

, and so this tells us that it must be true that ϵ>0\epsilon > 0 before proceeding on with the argument.


As far as the actual proof here, I would focus on why (by intuition) you would expect the result to be true.

That is: if a_n is consistently large and negative, then 1/a_n is consistently small and negative, so 1/|a_n| is small and positive.
You want to show 1/|a_n| < epsilon. Working backwards shows you you will need 0 > 1/a_n > -epsilon (note use of > since a_n and - epsilon are both negative). So you need a_n < -1/epsilon.


I understand that but I'm having difficulties seeing where this inequality comes from exactly.

1an<0    1an>0\frac{1}{a_n} < 0 \implies\lvert \frac{1}{a_n} \lvert > 0 and ϵ>0\epsilon > 0 but how do you get the inequality you've shown from this?
if bn = 1/an that would be a counter example for c)
Original post by the bear
if bn = 1/an that would be a counter example for c)


Thanks but I'm already done with that part, onto some new Analysis questions now :smile:

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