When did the right-wing become so unpatriotic?
The title is somewhat unfair, I accept that. I'm not talking about all right-wingers; in fact, in the UK most of my conservative friends are extremely patriotic and much more sensible on defence and foreign policy issues than is the Labour Party at present.
But looking to the United States (and the UKIP crowd here), when did these people become so weak and unpatriotic? When did it become de rigeur to act like a Russian shill, to support bending over for Vlad Putin, to constantly talk your country down and say that it's pathetic and falling apart, to support groups like Wikileaks and repeat every brainless conspiracy theory that comes along?
When did this happen? I can understand this kind of mindset occurring on the left, but something happened in the last few years where people on the right started adopting an extremely pro-Russian, pro-Putin, anti-US/UK attitude. I believe the seed of this may lie with the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones; he was always quite pro-Putin because he views Putin as being "opposed to the New World Order". He believes the Russian policy of paying parents for each child they have is pro-life and a spanner in the works of the "New World Order's" plan to "exterminate 90% of the population". In short, people like Jones view Putin as being the most powerful leader who is opposed to the "globalist" conspiracy and that is comforting that they can look to that person as sort of fighting against the conspiracy from behind the scenes. I wonder if that mindset leaked over into the hard kipper right, and then into the more mainstream right? We can see how far the right has gone down this road when Diane James praises Putin as her political hero and Trump desperately flatters and sucks up to Putin, siding with him over the president of the United States.
I emphasise that this has nothing to do with Brexit, I (reluctantly) voted for Brexit myself. But I think that there is this nexus between the Brexit crowd and this conspiracy world / culture which has acted as the vector for the virus of brainless conspiracism (and the Putinophilia that seems to go with it)
But looking to the United States (and the UKIP crowd here), when did these people become so weak and unpatriotic? When did it become de rigeur to act like a Russian shill, to support bending over for Vlad Putin, to constantly talk your country down and say that it's pathetic and falling apart, to support groups like Wikileaks and repeat every brainless conspiracy theory that comes along?
When did this happen? I can understand this kind of mindset occurring on the left, but something happened in the last few years where people on the right started adopting an extremely pro-Russian, pro-Putin, anti-US/UK attitude. I believe the seed of this may lie with the conspiracy theorist Alex Jones; he was always quite pro-Putin because he views Putin as being "opposed to the New World Order". He believes the Russian policy of paying parents for each child they have is pro-life and a spanner in the works of the "New World Order's" plan to "exterminate 90% of the population". In short, people like Jones view Putin as being the most powerful leader who is opposed to the "globalist" conspiracy and that is comforting that they can look to that person as sort of fighting against the conspiracy from behind the scenes. I wonder if that mindset leaked over into the hard kipper right, and then into the more mainstream right? We can see how far the right has gone down this road when Diane James praises Putin as her political hero and Trump desperately flatters and sucks up to Putin, siding with him over the president of the United States.
I emphasise that this has nothing to do with Brexit, I (reluctantly) voted for Brexit myself. But I think that there is this nexus between the Brexit crowd and this conspiracy world / culture which has acted as the vector for the virus of brainless conspiracism (and the Putinophilia that seems to go with it)
(edited 7 years ago)
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People like Alex Jones shouldn't be taken seriously. Some of what he says is spot-on, though.
However, if it is indeed unpatriotic to question our own government, or be afraid of it, then I am indeed unpatriotic. Conspiracy theorists are vital to maintaining basic freedoms we take for granted.
However, if it is indeed unpatriotic to question our own government, or be afraid of it, then I am indeed unpatriotic. Conspiracy theorists are vital to maintaining basic freedoms we take for granted.
Original post by Joel 96
People like Alex Jones shouldn't be taken seriously.
Of course he shouldn't. But many on the right do take him seriously; in fact, Trump went on Jones' radio show and said to him, "Your reputation is excellent. I won't let you down". The fact that the nominee of the Republican Party takes him seriously speaks volumes about how far down this road we've come.
Some of what he says is spot-on, though.
Such as?
However, if it is indeed unpatriotic to question our own government, or be afraid of it, then I am indeed unpatriotic.
Nice strawman. This isn't about being able to question the government, this is about spreading ludicrous and corrosive conspiracy theories and promoting a fascist, kleptomaniac tyrant like Putin as if he were a beacon of freedom; the fact that so many people on the right adore Putin now (like Donald Trump, like that lady who was leader of UKIP for about 5 seconds).
Conspiracy theorists are vital to maintaining basic freedoms we take for granted.
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.Original post by AlexanderHam
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.Not the lizards-in-government conspiracy theorists.
The usual package would be to talk your country down, blame an external influence for ruining the (foreigners, liberals elites) and then explain how you'll rebuild it to former greatness. The republicans in the US seem to have gotten stuck on step 2. The Donald is so inconsistent and incoherent in his policy you can never get a grip on what he wants.
The love of Putin I have no explanation for. You can't even use a he made the trains run on time explanation, because Russia is sinking by almost any long term measure.
Posted from TSR Mobile
The love of Putin I have no explanation for. You can't even use a he made the trains run on time explanation, because Russia is sinking by almost any long term measure.
Posted from TSR Mobile
Original post by AlexanderHam
Of course he shouldn't. But many on the right do take him seriously; in fact, Trump went on Jones' radio show and said to him, "Your reputation is excellent. I won't let you down". The fact that the nominee of the Republican Party takes him seriously speaks volumes about how far down this road we've come.
He said his reputation is excellent. Whatever your opinion on Jones is, Trump isn't wrong. Jones has a massive following and is considered to be one of the leading operators against the establishment.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Such as?
Such as?
It's a matter of opinion. I admire his enthusiasm to protect the second amendment. He's also right on BLM, in my view.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Nice strawman. This isn't about being able to question the government, this is about spreading ludicrous and corrosive conspiracy theories and promoting a fascist, kleptomaniac tyrant like Putin as if he were a beacon of freedom; the fact that so many people on the right adore Putin now (like Donald Trump, like that lady who was leader of UKIP for about 5 seconds).
Nice strawman. This isn't about being able to question the government, this is about spreading ludicrous and corrosive conspiracy theories and promoting a fascist, kleptomaniac tyrant like Putin as if he were a beacon of freedom; the fact that so many people on the right adore Putin now (like Donald Trump, like that lady who was leader of UKIP for about 5 seconds).
I'm not sure why Putin is as popular as he is, but he hasn't done anything terribly wrong to deserve the elaboration of your claims. A lot of Americans want to strengthen the relationship between America and Russia.
Original post by AlexanderHam
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.Not an argument.
Original post by Joel 96
He said his reputation is excellent.
His reputation is excellent? With who? Tweaked out conspiracy nuts and white supremacists? The fact that bigots and lunatics think someone is good doesn't mean their reputation is excellent; someone's reputation is excellent when they are admired/respected by a broad cross-section of ordinary, sane people. By your measure you'd claim David Duke's "reputation is excellent".
Whatever your opinion on Jones is, Trump isn't wrong.
Actually he is, for the reasons I just laid out.
Jones has a massive following and is considered to be one of the leading operators against the establishment.
Oh my god, you really believe this ****, don't you? "Leading operators against the establishment"? You're living in a fantasy, mate.
It's a matter of opinion
You said "Some of what he says is spot-on". You mention two things that are positions that pretty much all conservatives take, so it's unclear how that makes him worthy of defending. You seem to think it does; it speaks volumes about your judgment and political position.
I'm not sure why Putin is as popular as he is, but he hasn't done anything terribly wrong to deserve the elaboration of your claims.
Yeah, it's not as though under Putin's reign we've seen for the first-time since the 1930s one European country annex a whole chunk of another based on fascist, irridentist claims. It's not as though Russia under Putin hasn't sunk into a mire of corruption that is made all the worse because it's completely entrenched by a clique of rent-seeking Putin loyalists at the top. It's not as though under his "leadership" Russia hasn't become totally isolated, its economy stagnated and the sliver of political openness Russia experienced in the 1990s extinguished. It's not as if under Putin the Russian government has disgustingly used LGBT Russians as a scapegoat and "enemy within" upon whose head they can lay all of Russia's problems. Yeah, right.
You've pretty much confirmed you are exactly the type of person I was talking about. And this thread isn't to debate your paranoid, extremist views; it's to talk about how these views became common on certain sections of the right.
Not an argument.
The idea that someone who admires Alex Jones could discern an argument even if it popped him on the nose is laughable.
Original post by Joel 96
He said his reputation is excellent. Whatever your opinion on Jones is, Trump isn't wrong. Jones has a massive following and is considered to be one of the leading operators against the establishment.
It's a matter of opinion. I admire his enthusiasm to protect the second amendment. He's also right on BLM, in my view.
I'm not sure why Putin is as popular as he is, but he hasn't done anything terribly wrong to deserve the elaboration of your claims. A lot of Americans want to strengthen the relationship between America and Russia.
Not an argument.
It's a matter of opinion. I admire his enthusiasm to protect the second amendment. He's also right on BLM, in my view.
I'm not sure why Putin is as popular as he is, but he hasn't done anything terribly wrong to deserve the elaboration of your claims. A lot of Americans want to strengthen the relationship between America and Russia.
Not an argument.
The guy is a multi millionaire. He is a self publicist in the same way the Kardashians or Trump are. I doubt he believes much of the trash he comes out with, but sees it as a way of furthering his brand. Hell, there has been speculation in conspiracy theorist circles that Jones himself is a government plant meant to discredit them. Some operator.
Even if you want to view him in a positive light, he does nothing for governance or solving the alleged issues he brings out. How claiming no one died at Sandy Hook achieves anything I cannot see.
Original post by AlexanderHam
His reputation is excellent? With who? Tweaked out conspiracy nuts and white supremacists? The fact that bigots and lunatics think someone is good doesn't mean their reputation is excellent; someone's reputation is excellent when they are admired/respected by a broad cross-section of ordinary, sane people. By your measure you'd claim David Duke's "reputation is excellent".
He is loved by a considerably sized demographic of passionate supporters. Your leftist principles do not automatically qualify you to act as a psychological analyst who can declare who is sane and who isn't. Looking down on others is all you seem to do.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Actually he is, for the reasons I just laid out.
Actually he is, for the reasons I just laid out.
No, wrong implies that it was an opinion based on objective evidence. These was no objectivity in Trump's remark, it was merely an opinion. No more, no less. You happen to disagree with it, which is fine, but that does not make him objectively wrong.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Oh my god, you really believe this ****, don't you? "Leading operators against the establishment"? You're living in a fantasy, mate.
Oh my god, you really believe this ****, don't you? "Leading operators against the establishment"? You're living in a fantasy, mate.
He claims to believe in limiting big government. I consider that as a run against the establishment. Again, no need for the ad hominem.
Original post by AlexanderHam
You said "Some of what he says is spot-on". You mention two things that are positions that pretty much all conservatives take, so it's unclear how that makes him worthy of defending. You seem to think it does; it speaks volumes about your judgment and political position.
You said "Some of what he says is spot-on". You mention two things that are positions that pretty much all conservatives take, so it's unclear how that makes him worthy of defending. You seem to think it does; it speaks volumes about your judgment and political position.
"Some" isn't number-specific. I gave you two examples of what I think are justifiably good beliefs.
But again, you're ending each rebuttal with a personal presumption/attack. You need to stop doing that - it's not civil or smart.
Original post by AlexanderHam
Yeah, it's not as though under Putin's reign we've seen for the first-time since the 1930s one European country annex a whole chunk of another based on fascist, irridentist claims. It's not as though Russia under Putin hasn't sunk into a mire of corruption that is made all the worse because it's completely entrenched by a clique of rent-seeking Putin loyalists at the top. It's not as though under his "leadership" Russia hasn't become totally isolated, its economy stagnated and the sliver of political openness Russia experienced in the 1990s extinguished. It's not as if under Putin the Russian government has disgustingly used LGBT Russians as a scapegoat and "enemy within" upon whose head they can lay all of Russia's problems. Yeah, right.
Yeah, it's not as though under Putin's reign we've seen for the first-time since the 1930s one European country annex a whole chunk of another based on fascist, irridentist claims. It's not as though Russia under Putin hasn't sunk into a mire of corruption that is made all the worse because it's completely entrenched by a clique of rent-seeking Putin loyalists at the top. It's not as though under his "leadership" Russia hasn't become totally isolated, its economy stagnated and the sliver of political openness Russia experienced in the 1990s extinguished. It's not as if under Putin the Russian government has disgustingly used LGBT Russians as a scapegoat and "enemy within" upon whose head they can lay all of Russia's problems. Yeah, right.
All opinions. No objectivity. I'll let you have your little rant.
Original post by AlexanderHam
You've pretty much confirmed you are exactly the type of person I was talking about. And this thread isn't to debate your paranoid, extremist views; it's to talk about how these views became common on certain sections of the right.
You've pretty much confirmed you are exactly the type of person I was talking about. And this thread isn't to debate your paranoid, extremist views; it's to talk about how these views became common on certain sections of the right.
The idea that one can diagnose his opponent as "paranoid" based on two replies is completely obnoxious and childish. I don't know why I bother responding to you.
Original post by Aj12
Even if you want to view him in a positive light, he does nothing for governance or solving the alleged issues he brings out. How claiming no one died at Sandy Hook achieves anything I cannot see.
Even if you want to view him in a positive light, he does nothing for governance or solving the alleged issues he brings out. How claiming no one died at Sandy Hook achieves anything I cannot see.
I don't care about the nature of his theories, I care about the right to have them.
Original post by Joel 96
Looking down on others is all you seem to do.
Looking down on people who are stupid, paranoid or extremist is entirely valid; it's called possessing some degree of discrimination. It appears, from your admiration for Alex Jones, that this is something you wholly lack.
These was no objectivity in Trump's remark
You're right. There was no objectivity; objectively Alex Jones does not have anything resembling a good reputation. It's really quite simple.
He claims to believe in limiting big government. I consider that as a run against the establishment.
A "run against the establishment". A "leading operator against the establishment". This is hilarious. Your paranoia about the existence of some establishment conspiracy that Jones is putatively fighting against tells us almost everything we need to know about your judgment. It's always very telling when people start talking as though they're living in some movie, no doubt a political thriller or conspiracy flick like the Da Vinci Code. It's certainly no indicator that the person in question is grown-up and mature, or is capable of seeing the world as it really is.Again, no need for the ad hominem.
I love it when people who aren't very bright suddenly discover the term ad hominem, as if it's the answer against a valid point that happens to be a bit salty. I wonder how many times you'll use it?
All opinions. No objectivity. I'll let you have your little rant.
I mentioned things that Putin has actually done or presided over. You are incapable of responding, so you just offer a weak little line that you believe absolves you from offering any substantive argument. It's okay, I don't really need or want one from you; based on what you've already said your worldview is an open book.
Your defence of Putin is completely predictable so I don't need you to actually express it; that would just be boring, obvious and a waste of my time. We can just take it as read that you adhere to the ordinary conspiracist tendency of supporting that kleptomaniac fascist and dismissing criticism against him based on things that have indisputably occurred. No need to go back and forth on that.
The idea that one can diagnose his opponent as "paranoid" based on two replies is completely obnoxious and childish
Paranoia is an actual thing. If someone believes there is a worldwide conspiracy by the "Illuminati" to wipe out 90% of the population, they are paranoid and need professional help.
I don't know why I bother responding to you.
I didn't ask you to and I'm not particularly interested in what you have to say, so please feel free not to.
(edited 7 years ago)
A hilarious take-down of Alex Jones going mental and claiming that Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama are actual demons, that they smell of sulphur and that "lots of flies land on them" (notwithstanding the fact it didn't even happen, that is considered proof in the conspiracy nut's mind)
[video="youtube;u8TyLGoiUwg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8TyLGoiUwg[/video]
@KimKallstrom @Aj12 @JamesN88
[video="youtube;u8TyLGoiUwg"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8TyLGoiUwg[/video]
@KimKallstrom @Aj12 @JamesN88
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
stupid, paranoid
extremist admiration
for Alex Jones Your paranoia
It's certainly no indicator that the
person in question is grown-up
and mature,
or is capable of seeing the world as it really is
You are incapable of responding
stupid, paranoid
extremist admiration
for Alex Jones Your paranoia
It's certainly no indicator that the
person in question is grown-up
and mature,
or is capable of seeing the world as it really is
You are incapable of responding
I managed to gather up every condescending, presumptive and outrageous line of text from your response - and look!
You are a natural poet, my dear sir. One of a kind. The first and second stanzas are really quite breathtaking, but that last line... the way it just ends in a full-stop implies that maybe the narrator has passed away, or died suddenly. Maybe he just ran out of breath, who knows! It's definitely up there with Yeats and Leopardi.
Original post by Joel 96
I managed to gather up every condescending, presumptive and outrageous line of text from your response - and look!
You are a natural poet, my dear sir. One of a kind. The first and second stanzas are really quite breathtaking, but that last line... the way it just ends in a full-stop implies that maybe the narrator has passed away, or died suddenly. Maybe he just ran out of breath, who knows! It's definitely up there with Yeats and Leopardi.
You are a natural poet, my dear sir. One of a kind. The first and second stanzas are really quite breathtaking, but that last line... the way it just ends in a full-stop implies that maybe the narrator has passed away, or died suddenly. Maybe he just ran out of breath, who knows! It's definitely up there with Yeats and Leopardi.
Calm down, Myrtle. You're trying too hard.
In any case, I thought we'd established in my last comment, after you started bellyaching about "I don't know why I respond to you", that I'm really not that interested in your opinions and you need not respond further?
In any case, suit yourself. I'll just sit back and watch the crazy from here on in
Original post by AlexanderHam
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.
What a hilariously incoherent and deluded statement.Further evidence why most people on here despise you.
Conspiracy theorists like to question, and "questioning" is a human right and freedom.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
Calm down, Myrtle. You're trying too hard.
In any case, I thought we'd established in my last comment, after you started bellyaching about "I don't know why I respond to you", that I'm really not that interested in your opinions and you need not respond further?
In any case, suit yourself. I'll just sit back and watch the crazy from here on in
In any case, I thought we'd established in my last comment, after you started bellyaching about "I don't know why I respond to you", that I'm really not that interested in your opinions and you need not respond further?
In any case, suit yourself. I'll just sit back and watch the crazy from here on in
Original post by Dodgypirate
Further evidence why most people on here despise you.
Did I really upset you that much? You must have been carrying around this distress for some time. I don't really know who you are, but if I've upset you that much then I apologise
I can't help it if being right rubs you up the wrong way.As for "most people", I think you're confusing your own agitation and anger (and perhaps that of a few conspiracy nuts who don't like being called out) with what most ordinary, non-crazy TSRians think.
Conspiracy theorists like to question, and "questioning" is a human right.
No, conspiracy theorists like to make things up. Like so many conspiracy nuts, you confuse freedom of speech with freedom not to be ridiculed for saying crazy/bigoted things. It's your right to say lunatic things like that the world is run by the lizard aliens (or, as you put it, "questioning"). That's not the same as possessing the "right" not to have people laugh at you and point out how insane it is to make claims like that which we see in the video a few posts above.
Your version of "patriotism" (bombing countries for oil and Israel) appeals to no one. People don't want to meddle in foreign countries and start pointless wars, they want a future for their children. The type of "invade the world, invite the world" globalism epitomised by people like Tony Blair, George Bush or Hillary Clinton is the same "left" and "right" - the "left" cover it in a socially progressive veneer, the "right" cover it in a psuedo-patriotic veneer. All the same blood thirsty, amoral, greedy people dominated by the same interests.
I smell ((())) all over you.
I smell ((())) all over you.
(edited 7 years ago)
Original post by AlexanderHam
I emphasise that this has nothing to do with Brexit, I (reluctantly) voted for Brexit myself.
I emphasise that this has nothing to do with Brexit, I (reluctantly) voted for Brexit myself.
You dole out so much crud to other users on here and you voted for Brexit!?
I'm sorry but you voted for a thing which overwhelmingly is in favour and helps serve the political faction of the unpatriotic lot you described in the OP.
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