I&#x27;m a Quranist. Ask me anything!

OP

Original post by mhairtransplant

Are you a Virgin? :biggrin:

Lmao. No comment

Reply 62

Al-farhan

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

As the title says... :smile:

Why did you choose the camel avatar?

Reply 63

OP

Original post by Al-farhan

Why did you choose the camel avatar?

It's a boss avatar.

Reply 64

Good bloke

19

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

I reject the Sunnah because collectively, they're unreliable sources. Most of them are based on hearsay.

You must be kidding. The Koran is the very definition of hearsay, being Mohammed's claim of what an angel told him was Allah's message. Leaving aside the preposterous nature of a claim to be talked to by a mythical being on behalf of another such mythical being, Mohammed could have been lying or, of course, could have been mad. We generally decide that people who claim to have been spoken to by mythical beings have a mental illness, particularly when their behaviour leads to death and destruction, as Mohammed's did.

It is most likely, though, that he concocted the whole sorry story in order to influence his superstitious desert followers into performing his commands willingly, and fulfilling his aims as mediaeval warlord.

The hadith are merely unreliable eyewitness evidence, written down by unreliable scribes.

Reply 65

OP

Original post by Good bloke

You must be kidding. The Koran is the very definition of hearsay, being Mohammed's claim of what an angel told him was Allah's message. Leaving aside the preposterous nature of a claim to be talked to by a mythical being on behalf of another such mythical being, Mohammed could have been lying or, of course, could have been mad. We generally decide that people who claim to have been spoken to by mythical beings have a mental illness, particularly when their behaviour leads to death and destruction, as Mohammed's did.

It is most likely, though, that he concocted the whole sorry story in order to influence his superstitious desert followers into performing his commands willingly, and fulfilling his aims as mediaeval warlord.

The hadith are merely unreliable eyewitness evidence, written down by unreliable scribes.

If that's what you understand as heresay, then all religious texts (Torah, Gospels, Guru Grant Sahib, The Vedas, for example) are rendered as heresay, because they werent written directly by God and dropped out of the sky.

And thats fine.

Reply 66

Good bloke

19

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

If that's what you understand as heresay, then all religious texts (Torah, Gospels, Guru Grant Sahib, The Vedas, for example) are rendered as heresay, because they werent written directly by God and dropped out of the sky.

And thats fine.

It is hearsay, not heresay. Hearsay is gossip or rumour, or information which you have been told but which you have no proof is true. The Koran is obviously, and by definition, hearsay from Mohammed, and he has an obvious reason for lying. Hence it is completely unreliable, just like all other religious documents. Why educated modern man continues to give them credence is beyond me.

Reply 67

OP

Original post by Good bloke

It is hearsay, not heresay. Hearsay is gossip or rumour, or information which you have been told but which you have no proof is true. The Koran is obviously, and by definition, hearsay from Mohammed, and he has an obvious reason for lying. Hence it is completely unreliable, just like all other religious documents. Why educated modern man continues to give them credence is beyond me.

Thanks for sharing your opinion

Reply 68

username1894983

2

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

Sorry, could you summarize what the lecture is about? 40 mins is a long time

It basically refutes your entire ideology, of using the Quran only and neglecting the hadith.

Put the vid on x2 speed and it becomes 20 minutes.

It's worth a watch, you will rethink your position inshallah.

Reply 69

tazarooni89

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

It could be true, but if this line of reasoning was one you were going to follow. That would imply that following the prophet is more important than following God? Obviously that can't be. In all honesty, I think that even if they were distinct as you suggest, then it still doesn't translate to "and follow the 300,000 books on his sayings 1,400 years later". The Qur'an also refers to Moses as the Messenger in Surat al Muzzamil, verse 16. Moses doesn't have 300,000 writings of his sayings. I don't think that's what the command "and obey the messenger" is trying to convey. I see your point and stance, but I hope you see mine also.

I don't think my line of reasoning would suggest that it's more important to obey Allah. In both cases, it seems to me that the obvious thing is mentioned first (obey Allah, make sure you perform your prayers), and then the second thing is something a little less obvious, or something you might have otherwise not done so strictly, so it's highlighted so as to say "Remember, make no mistake, that includes obeying the Prophet and praying the middle prayer too".

Of course, if we had a 100% way of knowing that he commanded something in particular, in reference to Islam, then yes I'd say we should do it as Muslims.

I think we're kind of in agreement - that it is important to follow the commands of the Prophet, but the collections of his sayings have no guarantee of total accuracy like the Qur'an does. So it's not a simple case of saying "The Hadith says this, therefore it must be required in Islam".

However, while there is no way to know with 100% certainty what the Prophet commanded, don't you think there are some instances in which some of the reported sayings of the Prophet are quite reliable (e.g. if there are several reported instances of that saying, through many different chains of narrators)? What would you do if you weren't 100% sure, but say 90% sure that the Prophet had commanded something? **

Reply 70

jahidur99

5

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

A Muslim

you cant be a muslim if you dont follow the footsteps of the prophet im sure

Reply 71

OP

Original post by jahidur99

you cant be a muslim if you dont follow the footsteps of the prophet im sure

I'm afraid the definition of a Muslim is not "somone who follows the footsteps of the prophet".

Reply 72

OP

Original post by Dodgypirate

Should I use a lighter to burn the Quran, or do you reckon throwing it in a fire is better? :smile:

What you do with the Qur'an is left to your discretion. :smile:

Reply 73

cbblitz

12

Who's your favourite character from Rocket Power?

Reply 74

OP

Original post by tazarooni89

However, while there is no way to know with 100% certainty what the Prophet commanded, don't you think there are some instances in which some of the reported sayings of the Prophet are quite reliable (e.g. if there are several reported instances of that saying, through many different chains of narrators)? What would you do if you weren't 100% sure, but say 90% sure that the Prophet had commanded something? **

Well.. To put my response in context, lets consider the following hadith:
"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider.. the wearing of silk (by men)...and the use of musical instruments, as lawful…. Allah will destroy them during the night... and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.”

The notion of music being forbidden is pretty accepted and supported across all schools of thought in Sunni Islam. So lets assume this is "reliable" and the prophet actually said this.

The way this hadith can be viewed is with three posibilities:
A. The prophet said this, exactly as it is recorded above (Sunni stance)

B. People heard the prophet express dislike for men wearing silk, and for the listening of music. This somehow got a bit exaggerated through Chinese whispers over the years (sceptic stance)

C. The prophet didn't say this at all, and it is completely fabricated and falsely attributed to him.

Where do I stand?
Firstly, I look around me; no one I know has been transformed into a monkey, or a pig, so the hadith is immediately obsolete.

Secondly, I look to records of revelation about God in the past. Prophet (King) David was a Psalmist, a collection of (sung) praises to God. Now, it would be quite strange for that to be perfectly fine, then all of a sudden, God wishing to destroy those who enjoy music.

Thirdly I look to my own intuition and conviction. And it is absurd to me. If i'll be turned into a pig or a monkey for that, then I'm patiently waiting for that to manifest.

There are other hadith that are simply laughable. Like women with "camel hijabs" being in Hell. Obviously not divinely inspired, or even worth considering.

I hope you see my thought process. There are some hadiths out there that are really nice, and contain great messages that even non Muslims could endorse, such as those on manners, on charity, on patience.

Unfortunately, by and large, so many hadiths are about inconsequential and trivial matters like the height of one's head scarf, or the placement of a mans trousers- things that add basically nothing of significance to society, particularly to the 21st century one we live in.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 75

frostyy

17

Maybe not related to the subject of believing in the Qur'an only, but as somebody who seems to be, in comparison to some individuals of similar views, a quite rational and scintillating user, I'd like to ask - do you ever question your belief as a whole? Do you ever doubt the existence of a deity and wonder whether you're taking perhaps a risk with your own life, having a quiddity that may very well be harder and less fulfilling?

Reply 76

Al-farhan

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

I hope you see my thought process. There are some hadiths out there that are really nice, and contain great messages that even non Muslims could endorse, such as those on manners, on charity, on patience.

Unfortunately, by and large, so many hadiths are about inconsequential and trivial matters like the height of one's head scarf, or the placement of a mans trousers- things that add basically nothing of significance to society, particularly to the 21st century one we live in.

To be truthful anyone with experience with hadith will know that the majority of hadith subjects fall under what is known as mua'malaat or dealings (interpersonal dealings, financial dealings, family dealings...etc) as well as zuhud, charity and ahklaaq.
Another point is placing doubt on hadith is placing doubt on quran.
It would be contradictory to believe in the quran and deny hadiths.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 77

tazarooni89

Original post by Poetic_Innocence

Well.. To put my response in context, lets consider the following hadith:
"From among my followers there will be some people who will consider.. the wearing of silk (by men)...and the use of musical instruments, as lawful…. Allah will destroy them during the night... and He will transform the rest of them into monkeys and pigs and they will remain so till the Day of Resurrection.”

The notion of music being forbidden is pretty accepted and supported across all schools of thought in Sunni Islam. So lets assume this is "reliable" and the prophet actually said this.

The way this hadith can be viewed is with three posibilities:
A. The prophet said this, exactly as it is recorded above (Sunni stance)

B. People heard the prophet express dislike for men wearing silk, and for the listening of music. This somehow got a bit exaggerated through Chinese whispers over the years (sceptic stance)

C. The prophet didn't say this at all, and it is completely fabricated and falsely attributed to him.

Where do I stand?
Firstly, I look around me; no one I know has been transformed into a monkey, or a pig, so the hadith is immediately obsolete.

Secondly, I look to records of revelation about God in the past. Prophet (King) David was a Psalmist, a collection of (sung) praises to God. Now, it would be quite strange for that to be perfectly fine, then all of a sudden, God wishing to destroy those who enjoy music.

Thirdly I look to my own intuition and conviction. And it is absurd to me. If i'll be turned into a pig or a monkey for that, then I'm patiently waiting for that to manifest.

There are other hadith that are simply laughable. Like women with "camel hijabs" being in Hell. Obviously not divinely inspired, or even worth considering.

I hope you see my thought process. There are some hadiths out there that are really nice, and contain great messages that even non Muslims could endorse, such as those on manners, on charity, on patience.

Unfortunately, by and large, so many hadiths are about inconsequential and trivial matters like the height of one's head scarf, or the placement of a mans trousers- things that add basically nothing of significance to society, particularly to the 21st century one we live in.

I think you pretty much share the same thought process as me on this matter. I would additionally consider things like this:

1] Irrespective of what the content of the Hadith actually is, I'd want to consider if possible, how did this come to be a recorded Hadith in the first place. Based on any evidence available about how it was transmitted and by whom, and also how many people independently report the Prophet having said it, I'd think about how likely it is that he did indeed say it, and what degree of accuracy it might have maintained over the years. I think it may help me to remove an element of my own potential bias in the assessment of Hadith, if I consider it independently of what the content is and how much I may personally agree or disagree with it.

2] Secondly I'd also want to consider the context in which the Prophet may have made such a commandment. For example, he reportedly told people that when men go to pray, their clothes should be a couple of inches above the ground rather than dragging along the floor. As I understand it, in those days, the material that their clothes were made from was expensive, so it was considered an opulent display of wealth to be wearing a long cloak that drags along the ground behind you. In the context of the modern world I'd interpret that more along the lines of "Don't turn up at the mosque in a flashy car and designer clothes just because you want to show off to everyone, you're supposed to be here to pray". But instead I find it a little odd and unnecessary that lots of men at the mosque will be interpreting this Hadith to mean that they have to roll up their jeans from the bottom, which appears to me to serve no purpose anymore. In general I'd think about who exactly the Prophet is likely to have been issuing the commands to, and under what circumstances.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 78

OP