Why do the Bremoaners hate Britain so much?

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Brexit was about regaining sovereignty, not immigration. Controlling immigration is a function of our taking back control, one of many, albeit a very emotive and contentious one.

We can choose to impose immigration controls or not, the point was that whilst in the EU we didn't get to decide that as a people, as represented by our parliamentary democracy.

Now we do.

You said you did not want Parliment to get involved in Brexit negotiations so why are you so keen to get back soveriegnty for Parliment?

Reply 21

astutehirstute

Original post by Maker

You said you did not want Parliment to get involved in Brexit negotiations so why are you so keen to get back soveriegnty for Parliment?

This Parliament lacks democratic legitimacy. 52%, on a more than 70% turnout voted for Brexit, whilst a significant majority of MP's favour Remain.

I can understand that May doesn't want the disruption of a GE, but she should hold one all the same. Not only would she increase her majority, it would give her a democratic mandate. One she manifestly lacks.

She isn't doing that though, which is regrettable to say the least.

In the absence of an election someone needs to govern through this difficult but crucial period, to fulfil the people's wish in the referendum. I have no problem in the circumstances, if the Executive exercises quite proper power under our constitution, via the Royal Prerogative, to effect Brexit.

Parliament will get to vote on the Great Repeal Bill. Which is as it should be.

Reply 22

astutehirstute

Original post by Retired_Messiah

For what reason? The shitey tea or the faux-manners?

My original question remains unanswered.

Just why DO many Remainers hate Britain so much?

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Lord Sugar's search for an Apprentice continues...

Reply 23

Retired_Messiah

Original post by astutehirstute

It's not hatred of the place as such, more that they tend not to decide that Britain is something truly special to them when if they'd lived in say Canada all their lives they'd have just about the same quality of life, only differences being tea and mannerisms.

To be perfectly honest I'm not sure what you expect people to do when you say we should "make the best of it". Actually handling the referendum is in the hands of the government, all the rest of us can really do is sit and make predictions. I don't see why somebody who heavily advocated for remain wouldn't predict that brexit will be a total failure.

Original post by astutehirstute

This Parliament lacks democratic legitimacy. 52%, on a more than 70% turnout voted for Brexit, whilst a significant majority of MP's favour Remain.

Did the majority of the country not vote all those pro remain MPs in to represent them though?

Reply 24

Observatory

They're in shock. They think they ought to run the country and for the most part they do. They did not take the referendum seriously and they did and do not take their opponents seriously. As a result they did not expect to lose.

Leave would have found it psychologically much easier to have lost the referendum because they were used to being out of power. Losing a political struggle against a cause supported by the overwhelming majority of people in politics would have been disappointing but not surprising.

I don't think most of the Remoaners are motivated by dislike of the country so much as need to validate their view of themselves as an intellectual and cultural elite. They predicted disaster and did so not with the voice of an ordinary political campaign with a partisan opinion on some question, but with the voice of science and reason. The predicted disaster doesn't seem to be happening and that means that they don't speak with the voice of science and reason.

Reply 25

Maker

Original post by astutehirstute

If Parliament lacks democratic legitimacy, why are you happy to let the May government negotiate Brexit on Britain's behalf. Surely, the PM and all the ministers from the Commons are not there legitimately so should have nothing to do with Brexit.

In fact, what you say makes the whole Brexit referendum null and void because it was instigated by elected MPs who you say had no legitimacy and thus had no power to call a referendum in the first place. Thanks for returning the country to sanity.

Reply 26

username1204031

"Bremoaners". Why do leave voters just seem to constantly repeat silly made up words and phrases? They're like big babies trying to be clever but they can't come up with an original thought between them.

Reply 27

_Fergo

If Parliament 'lacks democratic accountability', how is it better than the supposedly 'undemocratic' European Union and what good does restoring its superficial sovereignty do?

And then you ask why people complain. The Leave campaign has been full of lies, contradictions and, well, lies. Don't expect people to just follow through.

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Reply 28

astutehirstute

Original post by JordanL_

"Big babies" who have changed the destiny of the country you live in, forever. :biggrin:

Reply 29

astutehirstute

Original post by *Stefan*

It is not supposedly undemocratic, it is undemocratic.

The concept of democracy originated in ancient Greece. The word "demos" meant (and means) the common people of an ancient Greek state, the populace of a democracy as a political unit. Demos, democracy.

We can easily define what the demos of the UK is, that is why it is a democracy.

Where is the European Union's demos?

Reply 30

username457532

Original post by astutehirstute

Why do you think that the UK is a 'common people' but the EU can't be? I have more in common with an unemployed young person in Italy or Romania despite not having been to those countries that I ever could with mega-rich Brits.

Reply 31

Nirvana1989-1994

You clearly don't get out much if you think it's just the 'Bremoaners' that do this....

Reply 32

_Fergo

Original post by astutehirstute

I know full well what democracy means - you're just displaying the ignorance of the average Brexit voter.

The EU Parliament is actually more democratic than the UK Parliament, given that the FPTP system (the most unrepresentative one out there) applies. There is also no House of Lords in the EU.

The Council is made up from Ministers from every country, depending on the matter discussed. Again elected representatives.

The Commission, in turn, is subservient to the Council and its appointment depends on the Parliament.

Now, if you think that a government with 36% of the vote is 'kratein' by the 'demos', you're clearly out of your mind.

Reply 33

astutehirstute

Original post by *Stefan*

You have not answered my question. I don't know if this is simply avoidance or you don't understand it.

We'll try again.

Where is the European Union's Demos?

Reply 34

the bear

we are currently in the Phoney War phase of the catastrophe...

Reply 35

_Fergo

Original post by astutehirstute

You have not answered my question. I don't know if this is simply avoidance or you don't understand it.

We'll try again.

Where is the European Union's Demos?

Your question is flat out wrong, hence I gave the answer I did.
The EU's 'demos' is that of all Member States. The EU, as a political institution, only has competence to enact legislation on matters which MS cannot, because such legislation is necessary to harmonise trade and good relations.

Where MS can enact such legislation, the EU does not have competence. This is something that the UK greed upon - it wasn't forced on it.

The Government can legislate on everything directly affecting the country, from education, to healthcare to business laws. That government, by the way, only has a 36% mandate, and many MPs are in the parliament with much less than 50% of the votes of their respective constituencies.

But sure, 'ma sovereignty' and 'ma brexit' - a vote based only on ideology and nothing else.

Reply 36

astutehirstute

Original post by SmallTownGirl

There is no such thing as a "European" in political terms, despite the EU's hubristic pretensions.

The European Union is a collection of nations and peoples who had discrete histories cultures and identities before the EU was ever dreamt up, and will have them well after it has passed into history.

Reply 37

astutehirstute

Original post by *Stefan*

You don't actually understand the question, do you?

I'll ask anyone else on this thread, who does, to answer it.

Where is the EU's demos?

Reply 38

_Fergo

Original post by astutehirstute

You don't actually understand the question, do you?

I'll ask anyone else on this thread, who does, to answer it.

Where is the EU's demos?

If you read carefully, I did. 'Demos', in case you don't know the actual meaning of the word, means 'citizens' in todays terms.

Also, nicely avoiding what I said about your original point and focusing on a single word which you yourself introduced. I guess I'm expecting too much from a Brexit voter.

Reply 39

novaDRGN

All I see is one side laughing and demorlizing the other side while bring nothing to the table. Don't get annoyed when people start crushing others competitively in business.