Criticism of Islam is not a hate crime, nor racist, nor enophobic

Original post by CookieButter

The problem here lies with this story. Is it true that the prophet married Aisha when she was 9? The answer to that question is no.

Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)

Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236)

Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.'" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 140; see also Number 139)

Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)

Reply 202

Original post by medhelp

No
the marriage was only consummated after she reached puberty, so islamically she was not a child at that point

true

however, she was a child of nine. Of course, one could label her as a post-puberal pre-teen, or a post-childhood pre-teen child, or as a post-puberal pre-teeny bopper or a pre- post- whatever : childhood is in the eye of the (pedophiliac) beholder and (luckily) of our statute books

best

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 203

Original post by mariachi

*

My friend why are you quoting sunni hadiths in response to my comment about shia? do you understand what shia means?

I don't know where to start with you really. You are jumping into the deep end and you don't know the basics.*

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 204

Original post by mariachi

Narrated Aisha:

As you can see from his/her comment below, it is clear that this poster will stick his fingers in his ears and sing "la la la la la" if the song you sing isn't from his own sect's book of lyrics. It is a variation of confirmation bias, I think. Islam is a very divisive religion.

Original post by CookieButter

My friend why are you quoting sunni hadiths in response to my comment about shia? do you understand what shia means?

Reply 205

Original post by Good bloke

if the song you sing isn't from his own sect's book of lyrics..

This nonsensical reply is the best you can come up with?

it makes sense on your planet to quote a book from a different religion to argue against another? you are going to struggle in education and life my friend.*
*
You have two sects that are practically two religions. They both have their own books and their own hadiths. One sect has books of correct narrations amongst sunnis, books a few hundred pages long, like Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. The other sect has Bihar El Anwar or The Oceans of Enlightenment; a compendium of 110 volumes of narrations totally unrelated to that of the other sect to which a science is applied to judge what hadith is right and what is wrong....Each sect has a totally different set of hadiths and narration of history and totally different practices. One sect believes Aisha to be a saint the other considers her an evilton, murderer, lier....this is all going to fly right over your close-minded, lay, don't know the basics, barely able to make a rational argument head.*

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 206

Original post by CookieButter

I glad to see so much openness in acknowledging that Shias and Sunnis are not really very brotherly. This is a bit like the mediaeval Christians arguing over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin - utter tosh and with little rational basis for belief at all.

To call the evaluation by extremely partial sect members of which hadith to believe a science is coming it a bit strong, isn't it? Where is the independent peer review?

Reply 207

Original post by CookieButter

My friend why are you quoting sunni hadiths in response to my comment about shia? do you understand what shia means?

I don't know where to start with you really. You are jumping into the deep end and you don't know the basics.*

dear friend, if you don't like "Sunni" ahadith, have a "Shia" one

from Ali b. Ibrahim from Muhammad b. `Isa from Yunus from Abu Ayyub al-Kharraz from Isma`il b. Ja`far that the Messenger of Allah صلى الله عليه وآله entered upon (i.e. had intercourse with) `A’isha and she was ten years old, and that one does not enter upon a girl until she is a woman.

Source: * Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 7 pg. 388 - 389, hadeeth # 1
Grading: * according to Al-Majlisi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Baqir_Majlisi this hadeeth is Sahih ( Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 24, pg. 235)

In my opinion, it is wrong to think simply in terms of "Sunni" and "Shia" ahadith. While it is true that Sunnis mostly refer to their six canonical books (the Kutub al-Sittah) while Shias have their four books (the Kutub al-Arb'ah) they do not systematically reject each other's ahadith

What is important is the hadith's chain of transmission (isnad) : if the isnad contains a person who is deemed as being untrustworthy, then the hadith may be classified as weak, or even forged

Needless to say, Shias mostly consider that those of the sahaba (Muhammad's companions) who opposed Ali and his family (the Ahl ul bayt) are not trustworthy (not to speak of course of Aisha)

Best

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 208

Original post by Good bloke

Cookie Butter should realise that, when we talk about Islam, we don't have the possibility of specifying what each single sect or sub-sect of Islam actually thinks, so we refer mainly to Sunni Islam to its sunnah and to its legal schools. It is up to the relevant people not only to specify their position, but also the reasons why their particular sect's position should be preferred.

Actually, Shias are also divided among themselves : you have Jaafaris, Ismailites (e.g. Nizaris and Musta'ali), Zaydis etc and they do have serious disagreements among each other (mostly referring to the number of imams or Caliphs recognised)

best

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 209

Original post by mariachi

Actually, Shias are also divided among themselves : you have Jaafaris, Ismailites (e.g. Nizaris and Musta'ali), Zaydis etc and they do have serious disagreements among each other (mostly referring to the number of imams or Caliphs recognised)

best

It could aptly be described as the religion of pieces, then.

Reply 210

Original post by Good bloke

It could aptly be described as the religion of pieces, then.

good one : however, to be fair, I would say that all religions are like that

once you have identified "absolute truth", your main effort becomes defeating all the other people who have also found "absolute truth" : whatever the official label

best

Reply 211

Original post by Good bloke

Firstly, my friend, I don't like political correctness. I am not going to sugar quote my religion for you or anyone else in hopes you don't get offended. This is the reality of it. Secondly, and this is very important, I strongly believe that disagreement is not necessarily a cause for hate. Quiet the contrary, I think its a healthy part of life. If we all agreed on everything this life would be very boring. our differences make life exciting and interesting. They encourage us to challenge what we think about things we hold very close to our heart, find mistakes and improve. Shia and Sunnis are different in as much as shia are different to you but being different is not cause for me to hate them or you.

Amongst shia the assessment of hadiths is called 'the science of narrators' or 'ilm el-rejal'. I was making a literal reference to that name in my previous comment.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 212

Original post by mariachi

My friend, you make a mistake that is all too common amongst people who come to analyse Shia Islam without knowing the basics.

In shia islam, unlike sunni islam, we have no books that contain collections of correct narrations. We have compendiums of all hadiths ever said amongst shia muslims. these compendiums make it clear in their preface, which people often miss, that the narrations in the book aren't necessarily correct and the kulyani makes that clear in his preface for his book kitab el Kafi, which you quoted.

"Shia scholars do not make any assumptions about the authenticity of a hadith book. Most Shias believe that there are no "sahih" hadith books that are completely reliable. "

there is a verification process that follows each and every hadith. laypersons, sunnis and non-muslims often make the assumption based on their relgion that shia hadiths quoted in our narration books are all correct much like christianity and sunni islam but that is not true. We compile everything without bias and leave the verification process of each hadith to learned scholars. You cannot simply quote a shia hadith book and say 'hey look this is what you believe in".

Now in regards to Aisha's age when she got married to the prophet, there's a few narratives in shia islam in support of our belief that she married him in her late teens/early twenties. One of these narratives is based on the following evidence; Aisha had a sister called Esma who was ten years older than her. According to all islamic narrations she was older than her sister Aisha by ten years. Esma died at the age of 100, 73 years after the migration of the prophet to Medina. She would have been 27 years old at the time of the migration. So Aisha would have been 17 years old at the time. the prophet married Aisha 2 to 3 years after his migration to Medina, making Aisha 19-20 years old at the time of the marriage.

A lot of sunni scholars also believe that Aisha did not marry the prophet at the age of 9. The problem sunnis have with this issue is that in their Bukhari (a book made up of a collection of what sunnis consider correct narrations) Aisha said that she consummated her marriage to the prophet at that age and they take all her sayings as being true without question. Now, all evidence contradicts this story of hers but they can't deny it because that would be calling her a liar and that would cause them huge problems as I am going to explain later on. One piece of evidence that contradicts her story and I am going to use sunni hadith here, is as follows: it is generally accepted amongst sunnis that Aisha was born 8 years before the migration of the prophet to Medina but according to another narration in Bukhari Aisha says that she was a young girl ('jariyeh' in arabic) when Surat El Qamar was revealed. Now, chapter 54 of the Quran which included Surat El Qamar was revealed 8 years before the migration of the prophet to Medina. This indicates that it was revealed in 614CE. If Aisha married the prophet 8 years later (622CE) and she had been a Jariyeh (meaning young playful girl between 6 and 13) at the time of the revelation of that Sura it would make her between the age of 14-21 at the time she married the prophet rendering Bukhari wrong or Aisha a liar.

The evidences that I mentioned above contradict Aisha's saying or in the least questions the correctness of the Bukhari book, leaving Sunnis in a bit of predicament. Based on the aforementioned inconsistencies, either Aisha is a liar or the Bukhari book is incorrect...Now, Sunnis can't say either of those things, as their religion is based on this book and this person. Aisha is an Icon to them. Sunnis base their entire religion on what this woman says. Additionally, they hold the Bukhari book of narrations very highly, considering it a book of correct narrations. So calling either wrong is rendering their religion wrong. So what they do is just ignore it. Some of their clerics say Aisha married the prophet in her late teen/early twenties as per the evidence but stop short of calling bukhari wrong or Aisha a liar because of the implications this would have on their faith.

"Needless to say, Shias mostly consider that those of the sahaba (Muhammad's companions) who opposed Ali and his family (the Ahl ul bayt) are not trustworthy (not to speak of course of Aisha)"

Firstly, Shia do not consider most 'Sahaba' who apposed Ali (as) as being untrustworthy. We have a science to asses the validity and reliability of hadeeth and its narrators regardless of who they are. Additionally. we consider people who 'apposed' Ali (as) and the Prophet evil (including Aisha), so the word 'untrustworthy' is not an accurate description no matter how you look at it. Also, 'the opposition of Ali' (as) is an oversimplification of this matter, really.

Reference
*"Was Hazrath Aisha 9 years old when she got married?" ...Mir Murad Alikhan Bait-ul -Qayem NJ

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 213

Undercover_xo

You people are focusing on the dumbest thing of Islam you could ever think of...asking questions like did the prophet marry a girl and is he a pedophile? Wth? The prophet has also married a Christian so what, is he a Christian now? Do you know why the prophet at the time had married to many women, because some of them were poor or at a disadvantage and even some women wanted to marry the prophet because...he's the prophet.
Btw quick question to the Christians, why do you guys believe Jesus is the son of God?

Reply 214