Lifting Heavy is so overrated.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/8415533/London-2012-Olympics-Christophe-Lemaitre-defying-logic-that-says-white-men-cant-sprint.html

"His slender frame also lacks the musculature of many of his opponents. He started lifting weights only a year ago, although, at 6ft 2in, he does have the height to match Bolt's famously large stride. With a bit more strength and explosiveness to complement his natural speed, his times could come down rapidly this season."

What about that?

Strength and explosiveness*

As we've already discussed explosiveness does not come from strength training, and clearly the guy writing the article doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Reply 61

IRL

Original post by Ocassus

Lol, you're making assertions with no proof. Guess what sunshine? I have TRAINED with Olympic Swimmers before. I myself am aiming for a Commonwealth time in my gap year. I've been in the gym slap bang next to Liam Tancock as he deadlifts 350 lbs x5. He only has 3 seconds on me in a 100 freestyle aswell, coupled with nearly 10 years on my age...

See this guy? He is the fastest breastroker in the world. If he did not do horizontal rows, he would not have developed the Lats that drive him through the water.

Its you vs Jon Rudd, the guy who trains team GB as head coach. (And writes my gym sets).

I'll take the guy with some credibility over your broscience...

Also.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/1122743.stm

LOL! 350x5 is ****ing pathetic. I lifted more than that when I was 17 years old. It's not solely about the weight training. It can work as a supplementary part of strength/conditioning for an athlete but it's not the panacea you believe it to be.

This is exactly what I mean, someone who as an olympic level athlete does not have to be strong, as 350x5 is a mediocre weight to be lifting in the Deadlift.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 62

IRL

Original post by roh

Yeah, tall and pretty hench, because they lift weights.

In fact since the emergence of Manussen and Roberts, who both played Rugby til quite late and thus built up more explosive strength and power there's a theory swimmers should do even more weights. Dunno how proven this is but certainly seems plausible.

Or Furosemide like Cielo.

Tall, long limbs, broad shoulders, narrow hips, big feet. It comes down to biomechanics. Lifting weights does not necessarily make you "hench" - there are skinny guys that have mastered the art of lifting weights properly - not the grinding style but the smoothness coupled with sublime skill style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5yifpd3RBQ

Reply 63

IRL

Original post by Ocassus

Cool.

I'd like to see how much you lift after an hours lactic acid set in the pool though. :colone:

Lactic acid is another sports science myth. Why was he lifting after coming out of the pool? Seems a waste.

Reply 64

Mr. Fox

Original post by IRL

Strength and explosiveness*

As we've already discussed explosiveness does not come from strength training, and clearly the guy writing the article doesn't have a clue what he's talking about.

Just wondering how you'd account for the explosiveness of Olympic weightlifters?

I eagerly await your broscience.

Kind regards.

Reply 65

roh

Original post by IRL

No, but in Magnussen and Roberts' cases, of which there hasn't yet been full study as first people just thought Magnussen was just a freak until Roberts came along this year with almost the same background and following the same rate of time drops, more resistance training seems to be the advantage.

I've no idea what their weight technique is like, just their swimming (which is pretty handy if not Thorpe/Hoogy smooth yet).

Reply 66

IRL

Original post by Ocassus

Wat?

Type IIX and Type IIA Muscle Fibres are EXPLOSIVE.

You build those muscles by lifting weights and hypertrophy..

Do you actually know anything about Muscle Physiology?

Sounds complicated.

Do you know what else is helpful to speed? How fast a muscle can RELAX. It's not all about forceful contraction. This is why weight training/strength training is only a small part of a complex problem of developing an athletes explosive power.

I'm going to let you in on a gem here and suggest you go read some of Charlie Francis' work. He coached Ben Johnson in the 1980s, who famously ran 9.79 seconds way back in 1988, a time which went unbroken for multiple decades. That stuff really will blow your mind. Yes, he advocated weight training but he was also knowledgeable enough to realise that explosiveness/speed were not a sole result of muscular strength/force production.

You'd probably enjoy the read. It may offer something different than what you're used to.

Reply 67

Aeschylus

Original post by Mr. Fox

Just wondering how you'd account for the explosiveness of Olympic weightlifters?

I eagerly await your broscience.

Kind regards.

I met Tancock at the last BUCS. He's a big big lad. We actually had a chat about training pretty interesting.

Reply 68

Taurus

I view weights as a measurement of my progress. I don't care what number i currently (weight) am at, only that this number increases which indicates progress. I do make sure I do a minimum of ten reps for each exercise.

Reply 69

roh

Original post by IRL

Would you rather have a medical treatment from the late 80s rather than the modern version?

And it's just a hunch but I think Ben Johnson's muscle may have had a helping hand other than the mindblowing techniques of his coach... I'm sure in 'Speed Trap' Francis says he encouraged Johnson to do furazabol.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 70

tooosh

Original post by IRL

Yes some boxers lift weight as part of their supplementary strength and conditioning programs.

Punching power is more complex than simply lifting more in the gym and as a result punching harder.

There are plenty of people that go to gyms and can out-lift professional boxers, yet will never punch as hard.

You haven't really addressed my point. At all. My point was that lifting does help with punching power and explosiveness. Of course most people at the gym will never punch as hard as pro boxers without any specific training.

Reply 71

Megaloblastic

Original post by IRL

My point still stands that explosiveness can't be built to any great extent from weight training alone. There's just more too it.

Tell that to olympic weightlifters.

Reply 72

roh

Original post by Ocassus

Ah hes not THAT big. :camp:

Now Mark Foster is a different best all together. :colone:

Adam Brown's the one that always gets me, must be the Auburn regime.

Matt Grevers as well when I saw him up close, but that's partly just because he's so tall I think.

Reply 73

Aeschylus

Original post by Ocassus

Ah hes not THAT big. :camp:

Now Mark Foster is a different best all together. :colone:

Well true I was pleasantly surprised how I compared to him on camera. So I'll subtract one of the 'bigs' :P

Wasn't there a study at Yale in 1950s that showed that swimmers who did weight training and swam improved more than their peers who solely swam?

Reply 74

Aeschylus

Original post by roh

Adam Brown's the one that always gets me, must be the Auburn regime.

Matt Grevers as well when I saw him up close, but that's partly just because he's so tall I think.

Adam Brown is an awesome swimmer. I used to vaguely know kris gilchrist (he was at my club) who has the uk 200 breast record and had an insane waist/shoulder ratio - lots of gym for him

Reply 75

IRL

Original post by Ocassus

Because right now I'm the one sitting here having competed for the country and you are...?

Even if you won an Olympic medal in swimming in a few years it's forgotten about. Hardly anyone actually gives a **** about it. I don't think I could name one current male British swimmer.

Original post by Ocassus

Do you have any evidence for that impressive claim?

We lift when we come out of the pool because HIIT coupled with short bursts of explosive lifting has been proven to help the body retain its strength after enduring heavy cardio sessions.

Also, 400-450lbs 1RM for a SWIMMER is fine. We want strength, not to be powerlifters. There is a balance to be struck.

The balance is what I'm getting at. What I've been trying to say all along. Obviously strength will help, to a point, but there is a diminishing point of returns with it. People should be hitting 400-450lbs within a year or two, after that what do they do?

HIIT is another myth. There was a recent piece written on it by a fitness author which was very interesting.

Original post by Mr. Fox

Just wondering how you'd account for the explosiveness of Olympic weightlifters?

I eagerly await your broscience.

Kind regards.

Olympic weightlifters are no more "explosive" than any other athlete, they are simply extremely strong whilst being agile enough to move into extreme positions under heavier loads than most people are ever subjected too. You don't need to "develop muscle" to be a successful olympic weightlifter. Countless examples of the pencil-thin lifters from soviet block countries who have unbroken records to this day from the pre-1972 era.

Methods of training in that sport have changed over the years but still you see plenty of underdeveloped athletes like Taner Sagir blowing people out of the water.

Original post by roh

Possibly, it's always interesting to hear more and more evidence. I'll look into that stuff though, although I don't really read up on swimming much.

Original post by Ocassus

Except that, again, I will trust in the actual SCIENCE of the MODERN AGE and my coach who has lead multiple swimmers onto Olympic and world record breaking glory over some unfounded stuff done back in the 80s.

Unfounded? The Canadians went from nothing to being the best sprint nation on Earth. A bit like the Jamaicans are now. Athletes NOW can't run 9.79 with the exception of Usain Bolt. You don't think some of that stuff his coach wrote is worth a read? That 9.79 was also run in the 1988 Olympic 100m final, beating the best athlete in the world, Carl Lewis. It's probably the most infamous sporting event in recent history, for other reasons of course. :wink:

Reply 76

fuze-mo25

nice sweeping statement!!!

please tell me more about the extensive research and experiments that lead to this conclusion (!)

Reply 77

roh

Original post by Aeschylus

Adam Brown is an awesome swimmer. I used to vaguely know kris gilchrist (he was at my club) who has the uk 200 breast record and had an insane waist/shoulder ratio - lots of gym for him

Brown is insanely strong, though with our freestyle sprinters I hope Disney-May can translate yards speed into LC speed like Burnett never seems to be able to.

We had Hickman who was big but nothing monstrous. Gilchrist looks like a triangle though just from a distance!

Reply 78

IRL

Original post by roh

Every top athlete is taking anabolics. The dosages were lower than the average gym rat takes today. Do you think if you took Furazabol, you'd suddenly be able to sprint 9.79s? People can't even do that today with Tren amongst other stuff.

The first part about medical treatment is ****ing retarded. The analogy is flawed, as early medical discoveries like penicillin is obviously widely used to treat a multitude of diseases, including the chlamydia I caught off your mother.

I'm very interested in reading about training techniques certain people used if they have teams of people who set records which remained unbroken for so long. What were they doing differently?

Reply 79

tooosh

Original post by IRL

snip

You started off saying resistance training was useless for sports performance and now you've compromised to it's useful to a point. I don't think anyone ever said it's all you need for ANY sport, excluding lifting sports.