Flatmate refuses to take the bin out

A simplified model is a common tool to start working towards some kind of plan or understanding of an issue. If you're not willing to undertake the process then we'll have to just sit here and keep saying how disgusting the OP's house is and offer no realistic solution.

The OP's kitchen being in such a dire state doesn't make obvious the solution to her conflict with her housemates. If you really want to include the idea that my hypothetical bathroom in its dirtiest state would be a health hazard then please go ahead, and answer the question based on that. How should it be cleaned, by whom, how often, and to whose standards?

Your simplified model was bereft of the key factor - uncleanliness to the point of a health risk - hence why I added it for you. My answer is "the lowest common denominator that doesn't leave the place in a state of squalor such that maggots and rats decide to make it their home". A and Z need not stand over the rubbish bag demanding that the other adhere to their own standard. They can compromise by sticking to R, the reasonable standard, which is set, minimally, above the threshold for first-world sanitation. Setting the bar higher is possible with consensus, but no lack of consensus will defeat the necessity for keeping the place out of squalor. That was the point of qualifying your analogy.

Makes sense, but R would surely prove completely unacceptable to A, who would be moved to do much extra cleaning, more often, again leaving Z with nothing to clean and A pissed off about doing everything.

I'm afraid every single person has a different "tidying threshold" - how dirty something needs to be before they are moved to tidy it. Or how full a bin needs to be before they are moved to empty it, and so on.

Therefore, in any given household, ONE person will have the lowest threshold generally and so will end up doing pretty much all of the clearning. I've lived in two houses where I was the cleanest person and I did absolutely everything, without exception. That's ok - I never asked anyone else to do it because it's not my place to do so. They weren't my guests. They had as much right to the house as I did and if they didn't want to keep it as tidy as I wanted to keep it then that's ok. If I didn't feel like cleaning it I didn't have to, but I wanted to, for my own benefit, so I did.

In my current house there is a much cleaner person and so now I'm seen as the messy one. I think the bin has some space in it while she decides it's "full", and takes it out, so I basically never take the bin out. I think the sink doesn't need cleaning yet, while she does, so she cleans it.

See how it works? You can't get upset at people about it.

- A would have no ground to complain about keeping the house in a minimally habitable condition.
- Why would A have done everything? A and Z would still both have to clean, it's just that A would have to clean more than he would like and Z wouldn't have to clean as much as he'd like.

Stop trying to be awkward.

If living in private accommodation it really comes down to the standard of cleanliness expected of the landlord and this should be stated in a licence agreement (which, in this respect, will be nothing more than the bin being when full/every other day).

If bins are being left full and this is causing problems with maggots, then it's a health and safety issue and the is the risk of attracting rats and mice, which all housemates will held responsible for when it is only one causing the problem.

If in theory we could divide cleaning tasks into equal portions, one part per housemate, to whose standards should the cleaning be done? Let's say a bathroom needs cleaning once per week, to standard A, to satisfy the cleanest housemate; and once per month, to standard Z, to satisfy the dirtiest. In a house of four, what sort of rota do you think would be fair and who should have the final say as to whether the bathroom has been successfully "cleaned" each time?

Thank you, so much for your points!

I wish I could have had you fighting my corner in some of the house shares I've lived in.

Unfortunately, in my experience its the loudest/nastiest/one with the most domineering personality that tries to force the others to do what they want and boss everyone else around.

So, good for the OP's housemate for standing up to the OP! And refusing to be bossed around!!!

A cleaning to her standards would mean the house is kept well above Z's standards, leaving Z with basically no cleaning to do at all since it would never reach a state that triggers an urge to clean it.

I got the parties mixed up.

lmao women are so groce

I didn't notice.



Yea, but think of it in practice - that couldn't happen. I'll use arbitrary numbers to represent levels of cleanliness, 0-10.
Imagine if the bare minimum Z does is keeping the house at cleanliness level 4, and he will clean and tidy things when they hit level 2, at which point he brings them up to 4 and then leaves it a month or two until it falls back to 2. Living on his own this is how it would work.

Perhaps A like things to be kept around level 9, and she cleans something when it drops to level 7, back up to 9. If she lived with Z there would never be any cleaning for Z to do because A keeping her higher standards means that things never drop to a level that Z would have to deal with.

It's not as if Z can do the bottom half of the cleaning and then A polishes it all off to her higher standards, because to get to there being anything for Z to do A must neglect cleaning at all for quite some time, allowing things to slip back down to level 2 or so, whereupon Z will be moved to clean.

Sure, but you're ignoring the common standard. If 5 is the lowest level of cleanliness above squalor, Z will have to clean more than he would on his own, and A would have to put up with either putting more work in than him or put up with the bathroom being dirtier than she'd like. She can't have her cake and eat it. That takes care of the problem of A's lower threshold being higher than Z's upper bound.

Sure if A indulges her obsession every time the place slips below a 7, Z will never do anything. But she wouldn't be obliged to do that, and she coldn't complain if that is what happened. She could, however, complain once things dropped below a 5 and Z did nothing. The way that the situation would work is that each housemate would take turns to clean the bathroom once it slipped below a 5. There would be no obligation to make it cleaner than a 5, and if A chose to do so she would have no basis for complaining that Z didn't clean as thoroughly as her.

I'm afraid every single person has a different "tidying threshold" - how dirty something needs to be before they are moved to tidy it. Or how full a bin needs to be before they are moved to empty it, and so on.

Therefore, in any given household, ONE person will have the lowest threshold generally and so will end up doing pretty much all of the clearning. I've lived in two houses where I was the cleanest person and I did absolutely everything, without exception. That's ok - I never asked anyone else to do it because it's not my place to do so. They weren't my guests. They had as much right to the house as I did and if they didn't want to keep it as tidy as I wanted to keep it then that's ok. If I didn't feel like cleaning it I didn't have to, but I wanted to, for my own benefit, so I did.

In my current house there is a much cleaner person and so now I'm seen as the messy one. I think the bin has some space in it while she decides it's "full", and takes it out, so I basically never take the bin out. I think the sink doesn't need cleaning yet, while she does, so she cleans it.

See how it works? You can't get upset at people about it.

BTW, I've lived in some extremely clean houses that have still had problems with mice/rats.

So I fail to see your point?

I didn't notice.



Yea, but think of it in practice - that couldn't happen. I'll use arbitrary numbers to represent levels of cleanliness, 0-10.
Imagine if the bare minimum Z does is keeping the house at cleanliness level 4, and he will clean and tidy things when they hit level 2, at which point he brings them up to 4 and then leaves it a month or two until it falls back to 2. Living on his own this is how it would work.

Perhaps A like things to be kept around level 9, and she cleans something when it drops to level 7, back up to 9. If she lived with Z there would never be any cleaning for Z to do because A keeping her higher standards means that things never drop to a level that Z would have to deal with.

It's not as if Z can do the bottom half of the cleaning and then A polishes it all off to her higher standards, because to get to there being anything for Z to do A must neglect cleaning at all for quite some time, allowing things to slip back down to level 2 or so, whereupon Z will be moved to clean.