The Student Room Group

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Reply 100
:smile: heh, yep, I did. I have 7.5 in IELTS and 20 in LNAT. seem enough? Actually they did not require IELTS from me as I study fully in English... anyways :smile:
John Gardner: r u already at uni? which one if yes :/ *curious*
Vanity
:smile: heh, yep, I did. I have 7.5 in IELTS and 20 in LNAT. seem enough? Actually they did not require IELTS from me as I study fully in English... anyways :smile:
John Gardner: r u already at uni? which one if yes :/ *curious*

John Gardner is the Professor of Jurisprudence at Oxford.
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~lawf0081/
Reply 102
Apologies for my ignorance :smile:
Reply 103
Much of the debate above concentrates on the importance of understanding and comprehending law as a subject and the difficulties that may be faced by a student whose first language is not English.

However, comprehension of the subject matter is only half the battle when it comes to law and that is especially the case in practice. The other essential skill, touched on by Mr Gardner above, is the ability to express oneself clearly, concisely and accurately. The successful lawyer is, on the one hand, able to utilise language to create a convincing argument on behalf of his client and, on the other hand, able to summarise complex issues of fact and law in a way in which his lay client can easily understand. The latter skill is by far the more challenging.

The irony is that those for whom English is not their first language can actually be better at expressing themselves simply and clearly. A more limited vocabulary is not necessarily a disadvantage when trying to distil complex concepts into understandable prose. Unfortunately, many members of the profession still seem to be of the view that the longer the word, the more convoluted the paragraph, the denser the letter of advice - the more impressed the client!
Reply 104
chalks
Much of the debate above concentrates on the importance of understanding and comprehending law as a subject and the difficulties that may be faced by a student whose first language is not English.

However, comprehension of the subject matter is only half the battle when it comes to law and that is especially the case in practice. The other essential skill, touched on by Mr Gardner above, is the ability to express oneself clearly, concisely and accurately. The successful lawyer is, on the one hand, able to utilise language to create a convincing argument on behalf of his client and, on the other hand, able to summarise complex issues of fact and law in a way in which his lay client can easily understand. The latter skill is by far the more challenging.

The irony is that those for whom English is not their first language can actually be better at expressing themselves simply and clearly. A more limited vocabulary is not necessarily a disadvantage when trying to distil complex concepts into understandable prose. Unfortunately, many members of the profession still seem to be of the view that the longer the word, the more convoluted the paragraph, the denser the letter of advice - the more impressed the client!
What is it that Polonius says in Hamlet? Something like "Brevity is the soul of wit", if I remember correctly. I think that is pretty true.
Reply 105
I like it quite a lot but think there are problems with it
What are the problems, Ray? If you can point them out, maybe we can put them right.
Reply 107
chalks
Much of the debate above concentrates on the importance of understanding and comprehending law as a subject and the difficulties that may be faced by a student whose first language is not English.

However, comprehension of the subject matter is only half the battle when it comes to law and that is especially the case in practice. The other essential skill, touched on by Mr Gardner above, is the ability to express oneself clearly, concisely and accurately. The successful lawyer is, on the one hand, able to utilise language to create a convincing argument on behalf of his client and, on the other hand, able to summarise complex issues of fact and law in a way in which his lay client can easily understand. The latter skill is by far the more challenging.

The irony is that those for whom English is not their first language can actually be better at expressing themselves simply and clearly. A more limited vocabulary is not necessarily a disadvantage when trying to distil complex concepts into understandable prose. Unfortunately, many members of the profession still seem to be of the view that the longer the word, the more convoluted the paragraph, the denser the letter of advice - the more impressed the client!


I can only confirm this. English is my third language, and my professors always gave me alot of credit in my essays for clarity and conciseness. A good argument is always clear and to the point. And, as you say rightly, the ability to understand complex legal issues has nothing to do with the number of rarely-used words one knows. I just wished some folks on this thread would understand this.
Reply 108
I think the main problem I personally have with the test is that not everyone gets the same one (as the OP stated). If not everyone gets the same test then I don't think you can compare scores fairly.

Also I think the essay part is stupid because again people get different questions and I think some people will be unfairly disadvantaged if they don't know a great deal about any of the topics in the questions (I realise they'd still be able to write a fairly coherent essay but someone with more knowledge but the same level of intelligence and essay writing skill would surely be able to write a better one).
Lemons
Also I think the essay part is stupid because again people get different questions and I think some people will be unfairly disadvantaged if they don't know a great deal about any of the topics in the questions (I realise they'd still be able to write a fairly coherent essay but someone with more knowledge but the same level of intelligence and essay writing skill would surely be able to write a better one).


The essay part isn't about knowledge, though, is it? Many of them are fairly open-ended, and your ability to come up with a convincing, well-argued passage is more about your deconstruction of the question, and, basically, how you assemble the argument. You can't just cram the essay full of facts.

At least, that was my interpretation of it.
Reply 110
brightxburns
The essay part isn't about knowledge, though, is it? Many of them are fairly open-ended, and your ability to come up with a convincing, well-argued passage is more about your deconstruction of the question, and, basically, how you assemble the argument. You can't just cram the essay full of facts.

At least, that was my interpretation of it.


I agree with you that it's not about facts, but I think that if you know more about the topic you'll be more aware of the different sides of the argument and probably be able to write a better essay than if you didn't know about it. I'm not saying it makes a huge difference but I do think it helps.
Reply 111
Personally I think the LNAT is useful, because it may help people who have 'less than perfect' exam grades to stand out and have a chance against more academically qualified candidates.

I took some of the practice tests and scored normally above average on them (18-21), but tbh the proper exam was much harder. The only other preparation I did was read a newspaper on the day of the exam :rolleyes: (I hate watching the news/reading newspapers etc).

Like previous posters have said, we just don't know how the universities are choosing to use our LNAT scores (as well as the mystery of how the essay is marked).

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