Was it rape? Long question but has been playing on my mind since
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Original post by Anonymous
I have tried to compress the details (putting all I can remember from the night) in your opinion, is my story rape?- I was drunk and at the bar and saw a uni friend of mine so started talking about him going home with my friend, the next I remember from this was being at his house in his room actually having Sex (I can't even remember getting inside the house/ taxi this is the extend of drunk that I was)- I stopped and told him I wanted to go home during sex at least 4 times and he'd stop me telling me it was a silly idea, it was dark, I wouldn't know my way home, I was being stupid etc but at the time drunk me thought he was probably right and he was only looking out for me so after each time stopping we would continue having sex- i remember me trying to push him off me and was kind of flapping my arms about to stop having sex with him but he had my wrists and held them down telling me to 'shhh' although it seemed more like he was calming me down - he also held my head to the pillow when we were doing doggy style (sorry for the graphic info) I tried resisting but couldn't so waited until we could change position but only once- I was on my period and had my tampon in when it happened and period sex is not in my sober thoughts AT ALL!!! I know regardless of how drunk I was I would of told him this and most likely the fact I didn't want sex (and if I did it would of took place at my flat, which it did not!)- The main issue is when we were having sex, proper sex I kind of went along with it and from what I remember it went on for 30mins plus and I stayed the night?? So I am more annoyed/ disgusted at myself for being to drunk to do anything or even leave and go home and giving him mixed messages the whole time! I know I should speak to a professional, but I'm unsure whether I'm just being over dramatic and would be wasting their time or not.
I'll be honest it's a bit grey to me. I'd be inclined to say that you were raped, but not so sure if he raped you (if you get what i'm saying...). That is to say that you were not capable of giving informed concent and tried to stop it, but i'm not sure if he understood that and actually meant to rape you.
It really depends on his intentions and that's something that's rather unclear in this situation. He may have been trying to comfort you in those situations and not aware of how vulnerable you were especially if he was also drunk, he may also have known that you were vulnerable and took advantage of it.
Whatever the case you are certinally not overreacting and I would suggest you get some professional help of some sort.
this indicates why universities need to give lessons about consent.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
Original post by Kindred
I'll be honest it's a bit grey to me. I'd be inclined to say that you were raped, but not so sure if he raped you (if you get what i'm saying...). That is to say that you were not capable of giving informed concent and tried to stop it, but i'm not sure if he understood that and actually meant to rape you.
This is one reason why I said earlier that, if it gets that far, it will depend on what he says when questioned by police. To be convicted, you don't need to want to rape someone, you just need to have no reasonable belief in consent.
So, picking a non-random example, I don't think for a second that Ched Evans intended to rape the semi-conscious woman he was convicted of raping, but the fact that a) he'd never talked to her, b) neither man in the room he'd turned up at - unexpectedly, uninvited, and unwanted - bothered to ask her if she wanted to have sex with him, and c) none of the three people outside the room who could hear what was happening inside heard the cries for more vigorous sex that he said she was making, meant that the jury in his case unanimously decided that he didn't have a reasonable belief in her consent.
In contrast, they decided that his co-defendant may have had a reasonable (albeit mistaken) belief in consent and unanimously acquitted him.
He may have been trying to comfort you in those situations and not aware of how vulnerable you were especially if he was also drunk, he may also have known that you were vulnerable and took advantage of it.
I'd bet a huge sum that it was the latter. Sticking your penis in someone is a very funny way of comforting someone clearly uncomfortable with it.
Original post by suedonim
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
Sometimes men go 'if that's rape, I would be a rapist too... so it cannot be rape'.
Original post by unprinted
This is one reason why I said earlier that, if it gets that far, it will depend on what he says when questioned by police. To be convicted, you don't need to want to rape someone, you just need to have no reasonable belief in consent.
So, picking a non-random example, I don't think for a second that Ched Evans intended to rape the semi-conscious woman he was convicted of raping, but the fact that a) he'd never talked to her, b) neither man in the room he'd turned up at - unexpectedly, uninvited, and unwanted - bothered to ask her if she wanted to have sex with him, and c) none of the three people outside the room who could hear what was happening inside heard the cries for more vigorous sex that he said she was making, meant that the jury in his case unanimously decided that he didn't have a reasonable belief in her consent.
In contrast, they decided that his co-defendant may have had a reasonable (albeit mistaken) belief in consent and unanimously acquitted him.
I'd bet a huge sum that it was the latter. Sticking your penis in someone is a very funny way of comforting someone clearly uncomfortable with it.
So, picking a non-random example, I don't think for a second that Ched Evans intended to rape the semi-conscious woman he was convicted of raping, but the fact that a) he'd never talked to her, b) neither man in the room he'd turned up at - unexpectedly, uninvited, and unwanted - bothered to ask her if she wanted to have sex with him, and c) none of the three people outside the room who could hear what was happening inside heard the cries for more vigorous sex that he said she was making, meant that the jury in his case unanimously decided that he didn't have a reasonable belief in her consent.
In contrast, they decided that his co-defendant may have had a reasonable (albeit mistaken) belief in consent and unanimously acquitted him.
I'd bet a huge sum that it was the latter. Sticking your penis in someone is a very funny way of comforting someone clearly uncomfortable with it.
Sorry I realise what I said could sound different from what I intended to say. I was refering to the instances he shushed her etc. It could (at a drunken stretch) be seen as comforting her and her then being comforted and ookay to continue. Certinally not right how it happened but in a drunken state it could possibly be seen that way.
I certinally do not believe that it was consentual and as far as poor op is concerned it was certinally rape. I don't want to damn somebody who may have also been impared and lable them a deliberate rapist. IF there was percieved concent (I don't believe somebody too drunk to remember events can give actual informed conent) and the guy was also drunk and not aware of how impared she was then it is possible that the events we have read could have been him seeing things differently and trying to comfort her if she was say (in his mind) just uncomfortable in a position etc.
Re-reading it looks far more like he was or certinally should have been aware of ops desire to go home and upset at the situation. But it is still possible that he messed up big time, read signals wrong because he was drunk and didn't react properly when faced with objection. He may have seen her stopping struggling as her starting to enjoy it and giving "concent" for him to continue.
Now i am not saying that any of that is right. It isn't at all. It was rape as she did not want it and tried to stop it even if it is uncler how it started. I'm just trying to say he may not have meant it that way and may feel bad about it now. In my view that makes it a little ambiguous as far as he goes since he could have (however stupidly) percieved concent and then missed signals. That doesn't mean she wasn't raped, but it makes it a little bit questionable if he (knowingly) raped her. I personally if on a jury would find it difficult determining if he were fully guilty despite it being clear what took place.
That does not mean op has any less right to feel bad and it is obviously only from my inturpretation which could easily be wrong since i was not there and am only going by what I read. I have a lot of sympathy for op especially since it seems he was somebody she knew and she is finding it conflicting. I can't imagine how tough this must be and I really hope she can get some closure of some sort and move past this however she chooses to do so.
Original post by suedonim
this indicates why universities need to give lessons about consent.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
I agree. I think it's far too often just said "don't rape" or what to do if you are raped but not really fully explained what rape is. I personally find it difficult to draw the line between action and intent so in cases where the accused is drunk or otherwise impared find it hard to say if they are guilty or not even if it is clear that the victim did not actually concent.
Just as it's seen as unclear if you can accept the concent of a drunk person since they are impared at the time. It's also often thought that you only have to concent at the start and can't withdraw.
People know it isn't okay to hold somebody down if they are kicking and screaming or go out with the intention of manipulating drunk people into sex. Anybody who wants to do that isn't going to be stopped by lectures and posters because they already know it is wrong. It's more important to teach about protecting yourself and others, being aware of the complexities of cocent and knowing when to come forward or to not take somebodys percieved concent as they may not really mean it.
Hi all, it's OP here,
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
Original post by suedonim
this indicates why universities need to give lessons about consent.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
If you are having sex and someone indicates they wish to stop then you stop. To continue is rape, whether they have said they want to go home or they have explicitly said stop it's still indicating a desire to cease. If someone is so drunk they dont know where they are or what they are doing they can't consent to sex. If you hold someone's arms down then unless they've explicitly said they are happy with that it's probably rape.
If I was on the jury I would convict.
Sometimes women have rapist brothers they wish to protect and will say it's not rape when it is.
The problem with that is the law of consent is that it is a grey area and even lessons on consent cannot be clear as the law isn't really clear.
Original post by Anonymous
Hi all, it's OP here,
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
No matter what it wasn't your fault, you could of reduced the risk by not getting drunk but that doesn't mean it is your fault.
Him being so drunk he misinterpreted what you said (I think this is what you were saying when you said he was comforting you) isn't your fault.
I tend to be highly sceptical of this type of thing but in that scenario with other evidence I would be very likely to say guilty, I agree it is unlikely to lead to a conviction.
I am glad you have contacted someone to help you with this and I would recommend just telling people you feel comfortable talking about this with no matter how few or many people that is.
And Lastly I hope you have done well on your assignments.
Original post by Anonymous
Hi all, it's OP here,
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
Glad you are going to talk to somebody about it. A lot of people blame themselves, but even if you did send mixed messages that doesn't mean it was your fault. It may have been a confusing situation but it still shouldn't have happened. If you seemed unhappy with it then he really should have stopped even if you did give any other mixed messages. If somebody is unclear then it shouldn't be seen as concent. Even if he didn't mean to hurt you or take advantae of you he still didn't act as he should have.
Please don't blame yourself. You tried to stop it and in a situation like that you can get confused and not really know what to do. It's easy to give in and stop fighting cos you're out of it or just don't think it would help. You don't have to blame him, but certinally do not blame yourself.
Original post by Anonymous
Hi all, it's OP here,
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
I'm sorry that I haven't been replying to previous messages, but truth be told hearing other people's opinions on the subject has been quite hard hitting and I simply did not know how to react until just now. I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
I am truly grateful to all who have taken the time out of their day to answer my question and voice their opinions regardless of the answer. Those of you who have mentioned they have been through something similar themselves, I am terribly sorry to hear and apologise for bringing up a subject so raw/ triggering to your own personal experiences!
Since posting this thread, I messaged a counsellor at my uni and am awaiting a reply. I haven't told anyone friends/family etc as I am not comfortable with openly taking about it just yet and it could put a lot of strain on friendships as they know the guy too. I am not looking to prosecute because I know it wouldn't stand due to little to no evidence! I just wanted answers because it was playing over and over in my mind!
After reflecting on the situation I truly believe it was my own fault and I wasn't clear enough, sending the mixed messages etc must of made the guy interpret them wrong and think I wasn't being serious. I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Thank you all again for your comments, love to all xxxxx
100% not your fault, no one has to be at fault. **** happens in life sometimes,
Stay Safe x
In a few years OP, you will look back with complete certainty that you were raped. You're just denying it right now because it's easier to accept that you were somehow wrong, than face the prospect that that man who you and all your friends know is in fact a rapist who raped you. The vast majority of rape stories where the rape occurs in this context rather than the unambiguous "dark alley" contexts tends to follow the same path. The victim blames themselves, and suffers for years, before accepting the truth. This is where education regarding rape does actually have a place. I wonder if that man is completely carefree right now, and you're suffering like this.
You are not to blame, and it is a shame you aren't reporting it. But I wish you the best, and hope you recover soon.
You are not to blame, and it is a shame you aren't reporting it. But I wish you the best, and hope you recover soon.
(edited 8 years ago)
Original post by Anonymous
I have also had two asssignments to try and complete by the end of next week both of which are proving difficult as I am struggling to think about a lot other than that night.
Can you tell your tutor that something has happened that is affecting you?
I stand for rape being wrong and if intentional no, they should not get away with the situation, but I do not think the guy would class the act as rape.
Perhaps he should at least consider that it was. It's quite likely that you're not the first person he's done this to.
You're questioning whether it was or was not rape- that should speak for itself, if you question, you know something isn't right here.
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