Circumcision ban is the 'worst attack on Jews since Holocaust'
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Original post by . .
Surely they have parents consent though.
Yeah it's 100% the parents decision but the argument is that they should wait until the child is old enough to make their own decisions and give consent for the procedure rather than doing it when they're too young to understand. There are also medical arguments for and against it that seem to be leaning against it these days.
I'm still slightly sitting on the fence to be honest.
I always thought of it as a very straight forward procedure that was a tradition and never really considered the moral principles behind it. Since then I learnt that it's not unheard of for children to have medical problems as a result of it and there's even been the occasional incident of death where theres been a problem with the anaesthetic for instance. It does seem wrong to put a person through an unnecessary medical procedure when they're too young to consent or have a say in it.
On the other hand many men would argue that they were circumcised during infancy and it never caused them any problems. It's not particularly uncommon for males to require circumcision or a similar procedure at a later stage in life anyway so some would argue that it potentially just gets it out the way. Sort of like letting children play together when one has chicken pox so that they all get it out of the way before they get older (chicken pox is apparently more serious if you get it when you're older). I don't know if people still do that but I'm pretty sure they did when I was a kid.
Circumcision is also said to have negative effects on the sex life too due to desensitization which is caused by the everyday friction against clothes that would not occur if the foreskin was intact. Personally from a female point of view I havn't ever had a negative experience due to a man being circumcised but I've only had sex with one circumcised man and I'm guessing it would differ from person to person.
Never allow the rights of a collective - in this case, two particular religious collectives (Jews and Muslims) - to supercede the right of the individual. It's that two-dimensional mentality which very often leads to atrocity. The Nazis believed in serving the rights of "Aryans" at the expense of the individual, which ultimately led to the Holocaust. The current German government should not say that a child's (who, of course, is just as ethnically Jewish as the mother and father) right to an unmutilated body is superceded by the rights of ultra-Orthodox Judaism. Lumping all Jews together, and saying that circumcision is an intrinsically Jewish quality, is in fact quite insulting to the many secular Jews who live in Germany.
Plus, if these particular rabbis are really going to play this game, I seem to recall a very nasty and odious association between bodily mutilation and Jewish children in the form of Joseph Mengele. Although the scale is clearly different, do they really want to carry on such a tradition? If you make such an absurd comment that circumcision ban is "the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust" then you open yourself up to similarly absurd comparisons like that.
Plus, if these particular rabbis are really going to play this game, I seem to recall a very nasty and odious association between bodily mutilation and Jewish children in the form of Joseph Mengele. Although the scale is clearly different, do they really want to carry on such a tradition? If you make such an absurd comment that circumcision ban is "the worst attack on Jews since the Holocaust" then you open yourself up to similarly absurd comparisons like that.
(edited 11 years ago)
I don't know what's more infuriatingly idiotic about this, the people equating this to the holocaust or the people linking nonsense about the health benefits of circumcision placed on websites that would have looked cheap and tacky in the 1990s.
Your own beliefs should not be considered reasonable grounds to enforce an irreversible, unecessary procedure on a child who cannot either understand nor consent to the procedure. Only where such a procedure would be considered a reasonable step to prevent an actual complication or physical affliction in development or later life should it be performed on a child. Why does this have to be so damn difficult?
Your own beliefs should not be considered reasonable grounds to enforce an irreversible, unecessary procedure on a child who cannot either understand nor consent to the procedure. Only where such a procedure would be considered a reasonable step to prevent an actual complication or physical affliction in development or later life should it be performed on a child. Why does this have to be so damn difficult?
When I said "bravo" to the german govt I didn't mean bravo to an indirect attack on jews (this law also extends to Muslims who are also circumsised) I mean bravo in that circumcision should never be forced onto a helpless child which has to live with a quasi-mutilated penis for the rest of their lives.
The decision should always be by consent.
But this is religion we are talking about, coersion and consent don't come into question with regards to Childhood mental (indictrination) and physical (baptism, body mods) and then the choice of leaving the religion - apostasy (met with the death penalty for some) or being excluded from the community/family.
The decision should always be by consent.
But this is religion we are talking about, coersion and consent don't come into question with regards to Childhood mental (indictrination) and physical (baptism, body mods) and then the choice of leaving the religion - apostasy (met with the death penalty for some) or being excluded from the community/family.
Original post by Bobo1234
Woah woah woah, where the hell did you get THAT from? Please don't refer to the holocaust in your answer, or you're officially a grade A moron.
Also lol at the irony of your comment juxtaposed with the fact that you have Germany's flag as your flag on TSR
Also lol at the irony of your comment juxtaposed with the fact that you have Germany's flag as your flag on TSR
I lived in germany for 10 years, so please don't assume that I judge a country purely based on what I gathered from GCSE/A-level Education.
I grew up in that country and read the scandalous and ridiculous proposals made by politician on the news papers every week.
How exactly does the flag contradict with my opinion about the country.? Surely,eventhough I am a german national, I'm still allowed to criticise the country.
Original post by sukee
There is some truth in it, I've experience it from peers on my course.
So you met some dicks who also happen to be German...wow. Y'know, I've met plenty of dicks who also happen to be British, I don't go extrapolating all over the place though saying that it's common for British people to be dicks.
Original post by Giggy88
No one said it's cleaner. We are rather saying that it's easier to clean it.
Since the foreskin creates a second layer, it's much more likely for urine to be left and dry out between the layers, hence making muslim men ritually unclean. Muslims cannot pray in this state. To be frank, I have yet to hear about someone who complains about being circumsised and claims that it has affected his life in any way. Infact, I can't tell you how frequently I hear people saying "Why the hell would I miss it, it's just a bit of foreskin".
I'm not suprised this issue comes from Germany. They are known for their intolerance to other cultures and religions.
Since the foreskin creates a second layer, it's much more likely for urine to be left and dry out between the layers, hence making muslim men ritually unclean. Muslims cannot pray in this state. To be frank, I have yet to hear about someone who complains about being circumsised and claims that it has affected his life in any way. Infact, I can't tell you how frequently I hear people saying "Why the hell would I miss it, it's just a bit of foreskin".
I'm not suprised this issue comes from Germany. They are known for their intolerance to other cultures and religions.
you do realise that its not hard to pull them back right?
you could easily clean it before prayer. And I never said anyone was particularly effected by it I just said I don't understand that reasoning when its very easy to clean anyway.
Original post by Giggy88
I lived in germany for 10 years, so please don't assume that I judge a country purely based on what I gathered from GCSE/A-level Education.
I grew up in that country and read the scandalous and ridiculous proposals made by politician on the news papers every week.
How exactly does the flag contradict with my opinion about the country.? Surely,eventhough I am a german national, I'm still allowed to criticise the country.
I grew up in that country and read the scandalous and ridiculous proposals made by politician on the news papers every week.
How exactly does the flag contradict with my opinion about the country.? Surely,eventhough I am a german national, I'm still allowed to criticise the country.
I wasn't saying you aren't allowed to criticise the country, just that you appear to be SO critical of it that it seems ironic you'd want to advertise the fact that you're a national of the same country, but maybe I'm over-analysing your criticism?
Have you read the tabloids in Britain or looked at what some of our politicians have to say with regards to other cultures and religions? I'm not making any assumptions of your relationship with Germany, other than I suggest you look beyond what politicians and the mass media have to say- if I viewed Britain based purely on what the Sun and the Telegraph had to say every day I'd probably throw myself into the North Sea and hope to grow gills.
Original post by littleone271
Yeah it's 100% the parents decision but the argument is that they should wait until the child is old enough to make their own decisions and give consent for the procedure rather than doing it when they're too young to understand. There are also medical arguments for and against it that seem to be leaning against it these days.
I'm still slightly sitting on the fence to be honest.
I always thought of it as a very straight forward procedure that was a tradition and never really considered the moral principles behind it. Since then I learnt that it's not unheard of for children to have medical problems as a result of it and there's even been the occasional incident of death where theres been a problem with the anaesthetic for instance. It does seem wrong to put a person through an unnecessary medical procedure when they're too young to consent or have a say in it.
On the other hand many men would argue that they were circumcised during infancy and it never caused them any problems. It's not particularly uncommon for males to require circumcision or a similar procedure at a later stage in life anyway so some would argue that it potentially just gets it out the way. Sort of like letting children play together when one has chicken pox so that they all get it out of the way before they get older (chicken pox is apparently more serious if you get it when you're older). I don't know if people still do that but I'm pretty sure they did when I was a kid.
Circumcision is also said to have negative effects on the sex life too due to desensitization which is caused by the everyday friction against clothes that would not occur if the foreskin was intact. Personally from a female point of view I havn't ever had a negative experience due to a man being circumcised but I've only had sex with one circumcised man and I'm guessing it would differ from person to person.
I'm still slightly sitting on the fence to be honest.
I always thought of it as a very straight forward procedure that was a tradition and never really considered the moral principles behind it. Since then I learnt that it's not unheard of for children to have medical problems as a result of it and there's even been the occasional incident of death where theres been a problem with the anaesthetic for instance. It does seem wrong to put a person through an unnecessary medical procedure when they're too young to consent or have a say in it.
On the other hand many men would argue that they were circumcised during infancy and it never caused them any problems. It's not particularly uncommon for males to require circumcision or a similar procedure at a later stage in life anyway so some would argue that it potentially just gets it out the way. Sort of like letting children play together when one has chicken pox so that they all get it out of the way before they get older (chicken pox is apparently more serious if you get it when you're older). I don't know if people still do that but I'm pretty sure they did when I was a kid.
Circumcision is also said to have negative effects on the sex life too due to desensitization which is caused by the everyday friction against clothes that would not occur if the foreskin was intact. Personally from a female point of view I havn't ever had a negative experience due to a man being circumcised but I've only had sex with one circumcised man and I'm guessing it would differ from person to person.
Just to try and knock you off that fence
I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm being aggressive or anything but I'm just gonna counter what you've said in defence of circumcision.You say it's not particularly uncommon for it to be necessary later on, well I'm not so sure about that, but even if it is true would you want babies to have their appendix removed just in case it goes bad later on? Your chicken pox analogy is, let's be honest, a bit weak.
As for sex life, I can't say I have personal experience of that, but let me say this: You are removing what will become half of the penile skin, the most sensitve part of the male body. You also now (apparently) require lube, as you can't move as freely as the skin is more restricted due to the scar tissue and the lack of that extra skin.
Also, I may point out, when you are a baby that skin is not a loose flap like on grown men, but it is still attached to the head, kind of like how your fingernails are attached to the top of your fingers. You have to cut it all away.
I don't mean to insult/belittle/victimze anyone who was circumcised, but please, surely you can see why it should not be done. Barring all my above points, surely the pain and suffering and stress caused to the child is reason enough?
Original post by Giggy88
No one said it's cleaner. We are rather saying that it's easier to clean it.
Since the foreskin creates a second layer, it's much more likely for urine to be left and dry out between the layers, hence making muslim men ritually unclean. Muslims cannot pray in this state. To be frank, I have yet to hear about someone who complains about being circumsised and claims that it has affected his life in any way. Infact, I can't tell you how frequently I hear people saying "Why the hell would I miss it, it's just a bit of foreskin".
I'm not suprised this issue comes from Germany. They are known for their intolerance to other cultures and religions.
Since the foreskin creates a second layer, it's much more likely for urine to be left and dry out between the layers, hence making muslim men ritually unclean. Muslims cannot pray in this state. To be frank, I have yet to hear about someone who complains about being circumsised and claims that it has affected his life in any way. Infact, I can't tell you how frequently I hear people saying "Why the hell would I miss it, it's just a bit of foreskin".
I'm not suprised this issue comes from Germany. They are known for their intolerance to other cultures and religions.
I'm sure the three to five seconds gained from not having to pull back and replace a section of skin has boundless beneficiary results. Time is money, or is it piety?
In any case, it's worth remembering that no amount of anecdotal evidence constitutes in any way a genuinely useful, scientific or otherwise, point of discussion. Quite apart from the ceaseless problem of positive affirmation that arises from anecdotes, I'm not really sure that it would mean anything anyway given your point in this case revolves around an opinion given by an adult, which is somewhat missing the point of the argument (it's about children and their lack of ability to express said opinion, not about their possible opinion twenty years down the line).
Original post by sukee
After working with the elderly in a hospital, I'm glad I'm circumcised. It's quite difficult to maintain cleaning it as you get into the elderly stages of life.
I imagine if that's hard to clean when you're old and decrepit, your armpits must be even harder to clean! Best make that appointment to have my arms chopped off then for easier access in my 80s.
Original post by Bobo1234
I imagine if that's hard to clean when you're old and decrepit, your armpits must be even harder to clean! Best make that appointment to have my arms chopped off then for easier access in my 80s.
I'll recommend you a doctor to get your arms chopped off.
Original post by A.J10
Just to try and knock you off that fence I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm being aggressive or anything but I'm just gonna counter what you've said in defence of circumcision.
You say it's not particularly uncommon for it to be necessary later on, well I'm not so sure about that, but even if it is true would you want babies to have their appendix removed just in case it goes bad later on? Your chicken pox analogy is, let's be honest, a bit weak.
As for sex life, I can't say I have personal experience of that, but let me say this: You are removing what will become half of the penile skin, the most sensitve part of the male body. You also now (apparently) require lube, as you can't move as freely as the skin is more restricted due to the scar tissue and the lack of that extra skin.
Also, I may point out, when you are a baby that skin is not a loose flap like on grown men, but it is still attached to the head, kind of like how your fingernails are attached to the top of your fingers. You have to cut it all away.
I don't mean to insult/belittle/victimze anyone who was circumcised, but please, surely you can see why it should not be done. Barring all my above points, surely the pain and suffering and stress caused to the child is reason enough?
I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm being aggressive or anything but I'm just gonna counter what you've said in defence of circumcision.You say it's not particularly uncommon for it to be necessary later on, well I'm not so sure about that, but even if it is true would you want babies to have their appendix removed just in case it goes bad later on? Your chicken pox analogy is, let's be honest, a bit weak.
As for sex life, I can't say I have personal experience of that, but let me say this: You are removing what will become half of the penile skin, the most sensitve part of the male body. You also now (apparently) require lube, as you can't move as freely as the skin is more restricted due to the scar tissue and the lack of that extra skin.
Also, I may point out, when you are a baby that skin is not a loose flap like on grown men, but it is still attached to the head, kind of like how your fingernails are attached to the top of your fingers. You have to cut it all away.
I don't mean to insult/belittle/victimze anyone who was circumcised, but please, surely you can see why it should not be done. Barring all my above points, surely the pain and suffering and stress caused to the child is reason enough?
Ok well personally I don't agree with it and I wouldn't condone it. I agree with your appendix analogy and admit that my chicken pox analogy was a bit weak as it doesn't involve the removal of a perfectly healthy body part. I'm simply sitting on the fence as to whether it should actually be made illegal or not. I guess it probably should be illegal but muslims in particular are known to be very stubborn when it comes to their beliefs and traditions. If we made it illegal then people would take their children to muslim countries to have the procedure carried out there where the sanitation is probably inferior to ours so if we were to make it illegal in the UK we may inadvertently make things worse for the children.
Original post by littleone271
Ok well personally I don't agree with it and I wouldn't condone it. I agree with your appendix analogy and admit that my chicken pox analogy was a bit weak as it doesn't involve the removal of a perfectly healthy body part. I'm simply sitting on the fence as to whether it should actually be made illegal or not. I guess it probably should be illegal but muslims in particular are known to be very stubborn when it comes to their beliefs and traditions. If we made it illegal then people would take their children to muslim countries to have the procedure carried out there where the sanitation is probably inferior to ours so if we were to make it illegal in the UK we may inadvertently make things worse for the children.
Circumcision in Islam is encouraged, not compulsory i.e. it's a Sunnah, not a Farz.
Original post by Bobo1234
I wasn't saying you aren't allowed to criticise the country, just that you appear to be SO critical of it that it seems ironic you'd want to advertise the fact that you're a national of the same country, but maybe I'm over-analysing your criticism?
Have you read the tabloids in Britain or looked at what some of our politicians have to say with regards to other cultures and religions? I'm not making any assumptions of your relationship with Germany, other than I suggest you look beyond what politicians and the mass media have to say- if I viewed Britain based purely on what the Sun and the Telegraph had to say every day I'd probably throw myself into the North Sea and hope to grow gills.
Have you read the tabloids in Britain or looked at what some of our politicians have to say with regards to other cultures and religions? I'm not making any assumptions of your relationship with Germany, other than I suggest you look beyond what politicians and the mass media have to say- if I viewed Britain based purely on what the Sun and the Telegraph had to say every day I'd probably throw myself into the North Sea and hope to grow gills.
Point noted.
But while Britain is extremely diverse and suggestions usually come from all sorts of backgrounds, that is often not the case in Germany.
Maybe the media is not the best way to express my point. But in general in britain the discussions usually range from the health regulations, over finance to education. Germans seemed to be much more concerned with more mosques being built or the percentage of foreigners that receive benefits. For example have you heard about the 2 year discussion over a mosque that is being built in cologne? The constructions had to be interrupted several times due to court hearings every few months.
One of the reasons for opposing the mosque was that the church 200 metres away had a smaller tower. This was a small church that is not even a cathedral or a dome.
It wasn't always like this, but in the last few years the discussions and critics seemed to be really one-sided in Germany.
Original post by sukee
Circumcision in Islam is encouraged, not compulsory i.e. it's a Sunnah, not a Farz.
And muslims should follow the Sunnah, so what's your point?
The sunnah is the teachings and practices of the prophet saw and muslims are ordered to follow him.
*I loathe it when people counter-argue with "it's just sunnah".
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