The Taboo of Science - "Black IQ".

If you don't mind me asking, how many black people do you know, and how did you come to know that they had genius level IQ?

Curious. People seem to forget that it was only 2 millenia ago that Brits and Celts were viewed as a barbarous race by the Romans. I'd wager the average IQ of a tribal Briton would be lower than the average of an educated Roman citizen back then too.

People are pretty much the same, but have had different experiences which have led them to different places.

We all had to do IQ tests at my school...yeah we were that sort of school :tongue:

In all, I pretty much agree with you.

Reply 41

Maker

20

Original post by ArthurWinterthurII

We still have this nonsense circulating in mainstream culture. Personally, I myself, like a few others, come from a culture and background that differs sharply with where a large majority of 'black' people in the West come from - hence why such statements that 'blacks have a lower IQ than whites' seems silly and like child's play to me etc. But, clearly some believe it to be genetically and inherently true and whatnot.

So, in an effort to see where this eagerness to make it true stems from, a few simply questions and premises are thrown out:

So, let us assume that not only do 'blacks have a lower IQ than whites', but that it is seemingly genetic and inherent.

Now, having established this, what do we do now? Do we take the black children out of schools? Not bother interviewing the blacks for top jobs? Give the blacks preferential treatment in our criminal courts? Or rather, round them up? Build concentration camps maybe? Or send every last black out of the West?

Clearly, what I'm trying to ask (through asking such offensive and direct questions) is that - what do such theories and studies about the link between race and intelligence seek to prove? Does it rather seek to further sever racial relations; further undermine any academic achievement of the young 'black' people? Encourage an inferiority complex in 'blacks'?

What do you think?

(ALERT, ALERT: Clearly, many of you replying have low IQs (lol, a pun, calm down). This post is laden with sarcasm. I personally do not believe any of the examples mentioned in the post. I even take the statement 'Blacks have a lower IQ than whites' with a pinch of salt much like I would take the statement 'First-year university students go out more than the general population' with a pinch of salt.)

LOL, your sarcasm seems to be a bit too subtle

Reply 42

NB_ide

14

Original post by Maths_Lover

Oh really now... by using IQ tests developed in the West which are based on the Western education system and culture? :colonhash:

Do you see the flaw in this system?

But Orientals do even better than Westerners, lol...

Reply 43

Aspiringlawstudent

3

Original post by Evangelica

I skimmed through a few papers my friend gave me and I do understand what you're saying but I cannot ignore the evidence that I've seen with my own eyes. Why are the black people I know the sort to get straight As and A*s at GCSE and A-level and go on to universities like Cambridge, St Andrews and LSE? If environment had nothing to do with it then surely the good education they've received would still have rendered them with lower IQs.

I also understand the concept of outliers, but then when I think of a few black people I know from much different backgrounds who don't do as academically well (Cs etc) I definitely notice that there is a link between upbringing and academic success. When the majority of black people live in the kind of environment when good education is not an option it is unsurprising that average IQ is lower. It is just difficult for me to believe, given what I've seen, that environment is not a factor when it comes to IQ.

Again, I think you're making a fallacy. What is not being said here is that 'all black people have lower IQs than all white people'.

It's an average. There are black people with an iq of 20, there are black people with an IQ of 200. There are people of all races with this kind of variance. What's being debated is the issue of how much group iqs deviate from the average level for the entirety of humanity, and how those group differences compare with one another.

And as to the issue of those that are poorer doing worse, I think you may be approaching it in a rather reversed way; you seem to say that 'people are less intelligent because they are poor'.

I am more inclined to say 'people are less wealthy because they are less intelligent'.

It's also important not to confuse intelligence with knowledge.

You can be very smart but know nothing about classical literature, law, economics, history, psychology, art etc.

My view is that education provides knowledge, it does not provide intelligence. Intelligence is something you are born with, in my view, and your intelligence is integral to your potential to gain knowledge, which is valued by human society.

If you look at those that earn the most, they are knowledge workers; lawyers, doctors, bankers, the like.

Those that earn the least are typically those that require the least knowledge; factory workers, those on welfare, those that are in occupations with a high degree of routine and a low degree of autonomy.

My theory is that a lower intelligence means a lowered ability to gain knowledge, which means a lowered ability to gain money.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 44

Blutooth

16

Original post by Evangelica

We all had to do IQ tests at my school...yeah we were that sort of school :tongue:

In all, I pretty much agree with you.

At mine too :tongue:

. They even predicted us A2 grades based on how we'd scored on the IQ tests. Even at gcse, my art teacher made constant reference to everyone's IQ, and had a long list of all of us in ranked in order lol. I couldn't see how that would help him teach us art tbh, but if it kept him happy I guess it's ok. :smile:

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 45

NB_ide

14

Original post by Evangelica

I skimmed through a few papers my friend gave me and I do understand what you're saying but I cannot ignore the evidence that I've seen with my own eyes. Why are the black people I know the sort to get straight As and A*s at GCSE and A-level and go on to universities like Cambridge, St Andrews and LSE? If environment had nothing to do with it then surely the good education they've received would still have rendered them with lower IQs.

Once again, there is variance - some black people can get straight As and go to top unis. You happen to know some such black people, presumably because you move in those sort of circles and don't have a lot to do with... other sorts of people, who get poor grades and don't go to uni.

I also understand the concept of outliers, but then when I think of a few black people I know from much different backgrounds who don't do as academically well (Cs etc) I definitely notice that there is a link between upbringing and academic success.

Of course - but which way round is it? Do intelligent parents achieve a better way of life and then breed intelligent children, or do the parents get better ways of life by luck (i.e. no credit due to them) and then use their money to educate their children better?

When the majority of black people live in the kind of environment when good education is not an option it is unsurprising that average IQ is lower. It is just difficult for me to believe, given what I've seen, that environment is not a factor when it comes to IQ.

Firstly you have to think outside of the UK society box, and basically no matter where you look, whatever groups and populations, there are racial difference in IQ (along with various other less upsetting characteristics). Secondly, as above - it's a chicken and egg situation.

Reply 46

Slax

It's a brute fact IQ varies by race. There are significant gaps between races on IQ tests, with Asians outscoring whites who outscore blacks. This doesn't have any moral significance, it doesn't mean one race is "superior," nor does it mean that this problem is innate and irreversible, nor does it mean that it's appropriate to treat individuals based on these broad trends. It's simply a data point.

:rolleyes:

Reply 47

Evangelica

12

Original post by Aspiringlawstudent

Again, I think you're making a fallacy. What is not being said here is that 'all black people have lower IQs than all white people'.

It's an average. There are black people with an iq of 20, there are black people with an IQ of 200. There are people of all races with this kind of variance. What's being debated is the issue of how much group iqs deviate from the average level for the entirety of humanity, and how those group differences compare with one another.

And as to the issue of those that are poorer doing worse, I think you may be approaching it in a rather reversed way; you seem to say that 'people are less intelligent because they are poor'.

I am more inclined to say 'people are less wealthy because they are less intelligent'.

It's also important not to confuse intelligence with knowledge.

You can be very smart but know nothing about classical literature, law, economics, history, psychology, art etc.

And of course, you can know many things without being terribly intelligent.

My view is that education provides knowledge, it does not provide intelligence. Intelligence is something you are born with, in my view, and your intelligence is integral to your potential to gain knowledge, which is valued by human society.

If you look at those that earn the most, they are knowledge workers; lawyers, doctors, bankers, the like.

Those that earn the least are typically those that require the least knowledge; factory workers, those on welfare, those that are in occupations with a high degree of routine and a low degree of autonomy.

My theory is that a lower intelligence means a lowered ability to gain knowledge, which means a lowered ability to gain money.

I wasn't suggesting that's what was being said. I was arguing the environment vs genetics case. Secondly, I didn't say 'poor' I said very different. Yes, poor is a factor but I also know several poorer highly intelligent black people. I was more discussing the parenting approach. Yes, you can know many things without being intelligent, I'm not arguing against that. Lastly, I don't agree that the greater proportion of the most wealthy are necessarily the most intelligent but that's another debate and we don't have to agree on everything. I think thus far on TSR our views have pretty much constantly been at odds with each other :tongue:

Reply 48

NB_ide

14

Original post by Evangelica

I wasn't suggesting that's what was being said. I was arguing the environment vs genetics case. Secondly, I didn't say 'poor' I said very different. Yes, poor is a factor but I also know several poorer highly intelligent black people. I was more discussing the parenting approach. Yes, you can know many things without being intelligent, I'm not arguing against that. Lastly, I don't agree that the greater proportion of the most wealthy are necessarily the most intelligent but that's another debate and we don't have to agree on everything. I think thus far on TSR our views have pretty much constantly been at odds with each other :tongue:

Not necessarily "intelligent", but certain psychological characteristics are highly beneficial to getting rich in conventional ways. These, too, can vary between people.

Reply 49

L'Evil Fish

18

About the whole, people with only average or above average being able to have children is silly, because ny biology teacher did a study at university about whether intelligence is genetic and it's not. If this policy came into place, I don't think I would have been born, but I have a higher IQ than average so...

Reply 50

Aspiringlawstudent

3

Original post by Evangelica

I wasn't suggesting that's what was being said. I was arguing the environment vs genetics case. Secondly, I didn't say 'poor' I said very different. Yes, poor is a factor but I also know several poorer highly intelligent black people. I was more discussing the parenting approach. Yes, you can know many things without being intelligent, I'm not arguing against that. Lastly, I don't agree that the greater proportion of the most wealthy are necessarily the most intelligent but that's another debate and we don't have to agree on everything. I think thus far on TSR our views have pretty much constantly been at odds with each other :tongue:

I am not entirely sure that the case that environment is a significant factor in intelligence is supported by science, however - though I am willing to be corrected if you have some studies you could show me that evidence it?

Reply 51

L'Evil Fish

18

Original post by Aspiringlawstudent

I am not entirely sure that the case that environment is a significant factor in intelligence is supported by science, however - though I am willing to be corrected if you have some studies you could show me that evidence it?

It's all about the environment you're brought up in, I wish I had the evidence! It was my Biology teacher's university theory project or something :/

Reply 52

Freier._.lance

13

Original post by vedderfan94

It's been scientifically proven. Blacks DO have a lower average IQ. Some people seem to think this is racism, but it's just fact.

Do you even know what science is?

To everyone else thinking that IQ is a measure of intelligence, it isn't. IQ is a measure of something, but intelligence, no.

Someone said that IQ has a greater correlation with upbringing and that I would absolutely agree with.

Reply 53

Hype en Ecosse

20

Original post by BillyBongos

yes you can :wink:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_and_intelligence#Specific_regions

I'm well versed in the relationship between brain structure (perhaps better put as neuroplasticity?) and intelligence. IQ, however, is quite an inaccurate psychometric test. It's as indicative of intelligence as the UKCAT is for suitability as a doctor.

Reply 54

Evangelica

12

Original post by NB_ide

Not necessarily "intelligent", but certain psychological characteristics are highly beneficial to getting rich in conventional ways. These, too, can vary between people.

Psychological characteristics yes; being knowledgeable, ambitious, able to spot opportunities, physical appearance often helps, so far I've learnt who you know definitely helps ... Yeah a lot of things play into it. In response to your other reply, the black people I have met in education so yes, that hugely limits my audience but I do believe it's a testament that every black student who went to my school did well academically - a good education surely helped.

In the case of parenting, yes it can be viewed as a chicken and egg situation or as neither. I understand that there are racial differences in IQ - the only thing I question is whether it's environment or genetics that play the larger part.

Reply 55

Blutooth

16

Original post by Aspiringlawstudent

My view is that education provides knowledge, it does not provide intelligence. Intelligence is something you are born with, in my view, and your intelligence is integral to your potential to gain knowledge, which is valued by human society.

Might I ask you, why do you think IQ tests are adjusted for age? Why is it that a younger child with the same IQ as an older child will be assigned a higher IQ?

Surely, since intelligence does not change with age and IQ tests are a fair indicator of cognition, the 2 children ought to be awarded the same score? But that's not what most psychologists would have done.

Seems like there is an implicit assumption amongst the academics that intelligence does improve with age, experience and knowledge- and that they account for this by re-calibrating IQ scores based on age.

(edited 11 years ago)

Reply 56

Maths_Lover

2

Original post by B-Man.

Why do Asians perform better than their White counterparts then?

An important thing to realise is that success is not necessarily down to natural intelligence. It is certainly helpful, however. Success is determined by hard work and attitude. Even if you are inherently intelligent, if you do nothing about it and laze around, you will eventually be surpassed by those who may not be as intelligent but are more hardworking. Being a teenager myself, I commonly witness many of my peers act as if their dreams and ambitions will be handed to them on a silver platter. :facepalm:

Many Asian cultures revere hardworkers and it is admirable to be doing really well at school, even among your peers. Now I'm not saying that is not the case in the west, but I do get the impression that it is seen as "weird", "sad" and "uncool" to want to work hard in general and it is certainly the case in many places that those that excel far above their peers are mocked for doing so. The result is that sadly many people are afraid to work at their potential for fear of being mocked and seen as that "sad nerd". However, in many Asian cultures, competition and ambition are actively encouraged, so there is less of this stigma that doing really well at school is weird. Consequently, more people will work hard and so naturally more people will succeed.

From speaking to many adults, teenagers and children alike, I have realised that many people think that because they have not succeeded at something at their first go or find it difficult, it means that they can't do it at all and so they don't try. Practice is seriously underrated. Take a person who is musically gifted and has succeeded in this field. People will marvel and say things like "Gosh, I could never do that!" without realising or really appreciating the fact that to get to where they are, that person has put immense effort and hours upon hours of frustrating practice into it.

To be honest, I don't think that Asian people succeed more necessarily because they are more intelligent than white people, but rather that a greater proportion of them appreciate the value of hard work. I have no doubts that if more people in Western cultures realised this, they too would become just as successful.

Also, India and China have the largest populations of any countries in the world. Statistically, there are bound to be more extremely intelligent people who are Indian and/or Chinese. It's no massive surprise really. :dontknow:

There are many other factors I could mention but this post is already long enough. :colondollar:

One could actually write an essay on topics like this.

Reply 57

Aspiringlawstudent

3

Original post by shadab786ahmed

It's all about the environment you're brought up in, I wish I had the evidence! It was my Biology teacher's university theory project or something :/

So, you're dead-set on your belief even though you haven't read any evidence about it?

Don't you think that's rather dangerous?

Reply 58

Evangelica

12

Original post by Aspiringlawstudent

I am not entirely sure that the case that environment is a significant factor in intelligence is supported by science, however - though I am willing to be corrected if you have some studies you could show me that evidence it?

First thing I could think of - taken from a paper emailed to me by a friend. Tbh I'm sure it's not difficult to find the info if you really want to.

"Various tests have shown that there is a socio-economic link to IQ as people who are better off financially score 17 point higher on IQ tests than those financially disadvantaged people who take the same exam. Does this mean that only the rich are smart? I don’t think so, but it does indicate that the accessibility of resources can have a profound effect on the development of intelligence. One such example of greater resources correlating directly to higher intelligence is a 1988 study on nutrition conducted on sixty Welsh children aged 12-13. Half were given a substantial vitamin and the other half a placebo for eight months. The half with nutritional supplements was shown to score eight points higher on non-verbal tests over the control group (Benton, 1988).

The development of a fetus has been shown to correlate to intelligence also. While this can be argued to be biology, in fact, it is environment. Conditions in which the fetus develops, such as drug use or poor nutrition by the mother can be shown to have a direct effect on intelligence. For example, intellectual impairment is much more frequent in the infants whose birth weight is less than 2,000 grams (Caputo & Mandell, 1970).

Environmental differences in how children are raised also play a significant role on intelligence. Socio-economic status (SES) has been shown to play an important part of development. One study indicated that children from a home with a low SES, upon being transferred to a home with high SES, improved their test scores as much as 16 points (Wahlsten, 1995). Another study shows that home environment also plays a significant role. This study, conducted by R.A. Hanson, indicated that Stanford-Binet IQ scores were greatly associated to many environmental factors that remain stable, in the home. These variables associated to intelligence in each age period are: ‘freedom to engage in verbal expression, language teaching, parental involvement, and provision of language development models’ (Hanson, 1975). Cognitive development appears to be stimulated by the development of language. Such home variables as quality of language models available to the child, opportunities for enlarging vocabulary through appropriate language usage, and opportunities for language practice were also found to be important factors showing a ‘.69 correlation between total ratings of the home environment and general intelligence’ (Hanson)."